No creek crossings permitted without bridges

P

psycho_dad

Well-known member
Can't have a hill on the course but people are worried about creek crossings and hay bales. I heard complaints about grass being too long and footing being uneven at a race I was at Saturday. From pretty experienced coaches. It was across soccer and baseball fields. About as good footing as it gets.

One of the most fun races I ran in HS was at Perry. It had multiple creek crossings. Also snowed 3 out of 4 years. I can see that. That's a natural obstruction. Creek crossings I'm good with. Placing hay bales is an unnecessary hazard. Especially how big the meets have gotten where there are hundreds of runners. Not a fan of artificially placing obstructions.

I've been to meets that are run in the same location they were run 40 years ago but the hills have been completely eliminated. I ask people running the meets why?, and I'm told they have complaints about the course being too difficult and too slow. To keep teams coming back, they have made them easier. So, I have no sympathy when it comes to creek crossings and hay bales. It's a gimmick at this point.
 
Y

yj_runfan

Well-known member
Shocked Futurama GIF

Tripping hazards on a cross country course.
 
C

CedarBuck92

Well-known member
Was talking to a family friend last weekend while my wife was doing his son's senior pictures on the CC course. When they hosted the county meet a few years ago they had to go out and rake the entire course to make sure there was absolutely nothing but grass and dirt on the entire course.
 
P

PatHelgerman

Member
I raked my woods once to smooth out the path and remove walnuts, which have caused several ankle turns in my runners over the years. Immediately after, a rain storm came through causing those areas to become ice-like mud that you couldn’t walk on without spikes.
It seems to me that logs and hay bales have been a point of attention for a long time. It’s only recently that water became an area for scrutiny. Stream crossings used to be 4th or 5th on my list of things that make for a real, fun cross country course. It’s odd that standing water is “ok”. What happens when Otterbein’s course turns into a lake, which it frequently does? Or is that actually a stream crossing because it overflows the river?
Do we need to take an axe to every tree root? Is this why we get more and more courses that are nothing but laps around practice fields?
 
Y

yj_runfan

Well-known member
The 46th annual Catherine Creek Scamper, at Catherine Creek State Park near Union, is infamous for its long and deep mud pit.
"It's not really a course you typically run for a PR (personal record)," Baker coach Suzy Cole said. "Having said that, I think we ran really well. It's a lot of fun, that's what cross-country is about, to have fun, it's about variety and still having good competitive races."
1694449510600.jpeg
 
Y

yj_runfan

Well-known member
The Sept. 1 race, the Gingerbread Jamboree, in Denton, Texas featured an unavoidable water pit on the race course. Most runners decided to accelerate through it to minimize wetness. A runner in a black singlet figured he would impress the crowd with a cannonball.
1694449850973.png
 
C

CC Track Fan

Well-known member
Altor said:
Rule 8-1-3b is not a new rule. It has been there for 30+ years.
"No ground obstructions which might cause tripping, turned ankles, etc. No overhead objects such as tree branches lower than 8 feet above the ground."

Some officials were allowing the ankle-deep stream crossings with clear water where you could see where you were stepping as we did not consider it dangerous. Some officials raised their objections to stream crossings that were much more than ankle deep and in dirty water so that you had no idea what was under the water or where it was safe to step. So, the OHSAA asked the NFHS for clarification on when it was a problem and when it was not. When they got that ruling last October, they passed it on. It's not a case of the OHSAA choosing not to follow a rule until now. They were allowing the referees and meet management to use their judgement on what was considered a ground obstruction. The NFHS just confirmed that our judgements were incorrect.

As for the hay bales, case book 8.1.3 Situation C has been in the case book for at least 30+ years (paraphrased):
Bales of hay or logs have been placed on the course. Coach objects. Ruling: The artificial barriers shall be removed. (8-1-3b)
Those should never have been on the course.
Click to expand...
This excuse is weak, dare I say it is a lie. They choose when they decided to enforce these rules. They can't be that incompetent to not know the rule for 30+ years and even assign meets to a district meet that contained creek crossings.

They should have been men about it and in that Memo above noting that they made a mistake and should not have chosen to allow creek crossing and apologize for any problems that has caused.

The lie/cover-up in most cases in life is worse than the thing they lied about or trying to cover up. Or maybe I just shouldn't underestimate the incompetence of the OHSAA.
 
A

Altor

Well-known member
You act like it's been the same people making those decisions for 30 years. Like a lot of organizations, there's been a lot of turnover recently in those offices. The current people decided to ask for a clarification and they got it.
 
P

psycho_dad

Well-known member
A lot of things to get upset about in life. This isn't one of them.

SRI has come on here many times with solid explanations. He seems like an advocate for the sport and not a detractor. Doesn't seem like there is some big lie and cover up. Thank god CC is a sport with very few rules. Interesting how each one of them is the dumbest one ever.
 
E

EuclidandViren

Well-known member
I went to a meet for high school and middle school yesterday in Ohio.

It rained for 2 hours straight right before the meet. It was awesome. My favorite event I have been to this year.

7 total creek crossings. Including some 2-3 feet deep. I counted 5 OHSAA officials including many that officiate the state XC and track meets. Parents were there taking pictures and thought this sport was awesome.

Coaches told kids beforehand- times don't matter. Just have fun and race.

Kids raced and had the time of their lives.

Rules are made to be broken. Do what is best for kids.
 
P

psycho_dad

Well-known member
Good lesson for kids to learn is that Rules are made to be broken. Then you cry about it and can't understand why you aren't running at the Regional or State. Rules are made to be broken. Dumb.
 
V

VFL

Member
EuclidandViren said:
I went to a meet for high school and middle school yesterday in Ohio.

It rained for 2 hours straight right before the meet. It was awesome. My favorite event I have been to this year.

7 total creek crossings. Including some 2-3 feet deep. I counted 5 OHSAA officials including many that officiate the state XC and track meets. Parents were there taking pictures and thought this sport was awesome.

Coaches told kids beforehand- times don't matter. Just have fun and race.

Kids raced and had the time of their lives.

Rules are made to be broken. Do what is best for kids.
Click to expand...
Glad that they were able to do it and had fun! I remember a huge storm at Mason when my son was running the kids loved it! There were videos of slipping and sliding on the course and that didn't even include the creeks.
I understand that host schools were threaten with a post season consequences for failing to follow the rules.
 
P

psycho_dad

Well-known member
Terrible that the OHSAA has ruined the sport. What can we do to get kids interested in participating in CC?

Year - Meet - # of entries
2023 - Tiffin - 3900
2022 - Tiffin - 3500
2019 - Tiffin - 6800
2018 - Tiffin - 7100
2023 - Mason - 3000 (2 days)
2022 - Mason - 3100
2019 - Mason - 3400
2023 - Seneca - 1800??
2019 - Watkins - 2800??
2023 - Cedarville - 1775(as of now)
2019 - Cedarville - 2400
2023 - Boardman - 4489 (as of now)
2023 - Centerville Night lights - 2639 (as of now)
2023 - Troy Twilight - 2261 (as of now)
2019 - Troy - 1200
 
P

psycho_dad

Well-known member
yj_runfan said:
The Sept. 1 race, the Gingerbread Jamboree, in Denton, Texas featured an unavoidable water pit on the race course. Most runners decided to accelerate through it to minimize wetness. A runner in a black singlet figured he would impress the crowd with a cannonball.
View attachment 46422
Click to expand...
Wow, how competitive. How many runners do you think the kid diving into the water passed with that move? We need to make sure that class clowns and those that don't respect the sport have props out on the course to help them make a mockery of the hard work and dedication their teammates and coaches put in. How precious. The high school boys fun run is always the best race of any meet. I can just imagine the laughs my dad and I would have on the ride home if I had done something like that and wasn't the overall winner of the race. We all encourage kids to goof off in all other sports. Shooting at the wrong basket is always funny. Don't care how bad you are losing.
 
Y

yj_runfan

Well-known member
psycho_dad said:
Wow, how competitive. How many runners do you think the kid diving into the water passed with that move? We need to make sure that class clowns and those that don't respect the sport have props out on the course to help them make a mockery of the hard work and dedication their teammates and coaches put in. How precious. The high school boys fun run is always the best race of any meet. I can just imagine the laughs my dad and I would have on the ride home if I had done something like that and wasn't the overall winner of the race. We all encourage kids to goof off in all other sports. Shooting at the wrong basket is always funny. Don't care how bad you are losing.
Click to expand...
You’re right. That kid will never be a state champion with that kind of attitude.
 
Last edited:
C

CedarBuck92

Well-known member
EuclidandViren said:
I went to a meet for high school and middle school yesterday in Ohio.

It rained for 2 hours straight right before the meet. It was awesome. My favorite event I have been to this year.

7 total creek crossings. Including some 2-3 feet deep. I counted 5 OHSAA officials including many that officiate the state XC and track meets. Parents were there taking pictures and thought this sport was awesome.

Coaches told kids beforehand- times don't matter. Just have fun and race.

Kids raced and had the time of their lives.

Rules are made to be broken. Do what is best for kids.
Click to expand...
Who gets to decide what's best though? Because what I think is best, what you think is best, and what the NFHS thing is best could be 3 completely different things. And what about rules that are in place to protect the kids? Should those be broken to?
 
E

EuclidandViren

Well-known member
psycho_dad said:
Wow, how competitive. How many runners do you think the kid diving into the water passed with that move? We need to make sure that class clowns and those that don't respect the sport have props out on the course to help them make a mockery of the hard work and dedication their teammates and coaches put in. How precious. The high school boys fun run is always the best race of any meet. I can just imagine the laughs my dad and I would have on the ride home if I had done something like that and wasn't the overall winner of the race. We all encourage kids to goof off in all other sports. Shooting at the wrong basket is always funny. Don't care how bad you are losing.
Click to expand...
Troll alert. I bet you are fun at parties.

All sports have fun. The mockery in team sports is endless and no need to explain how much tomfoolery happens.
 
5

5x26

Active member
psycho_dad said:
Wow, how competitive. How many runners do you think the kid diving into the water passed with that move? We need to make sure that class clowns and those that don't respect the sport have props out on the course to help them make a mockery of the hard work and dedication their teammates and coaches put in. How precious. The high school boys fun run is always the best race of any meet. I can just imagine the laughs my dad and I would have on the ride home if I had done something like that and wasn't the overall winner of the race. We all encourage kids to goof off in all other sports. Shooting at the wrong basket is always funny. Don't care how bad you are losing.
Click to expand...
You are always so insufferable. Especially for someone who is just flat wrong as often as you are. You do bring many of us a good laugh, though not for the reason you think. So for that I appreciate you.
 
P

psycho_dad

Well-known member
5x26 said:
You are always so insufferable. Especially for someone who is just flat wrong as often as you are. You do bring many of us a good laugh, though not for the reason you think. So for that I appreciate you.
Click to expand...
Always good to be appreciated. Thank you.
 
C

CincyIllinifan

Member
SRI said:
I wanted to clarify some items related to this topic.

- The issue related to crossings and obsticals was brought forward by Ohio schools and officials during the season last year asking for clarification on the rule. It involved several meets. Some meets in the state had both of those and some thought they could not.

- The rule that required their removal is a national rule not an OHSAA rule and we cannot rewrite the rule. It is not a new rule. Other states following the rule or not is not something we take into consideration. The guidance to remove both was gained from the NFHS, we use NFHS rules.

- We don't have a choice to ignore rules we don't like. There are many I don't like but we follow them just the same.

- In collaboration with the coaches association we requested a national rule change that would allow safe water crossings. The rule was not approved by the rules committee.
Click to expand...
Could be. I heard from a couple coaches, runners, and 4-5 parents that the coach from the Missouri team complained, and Mason was told afterwards to remove the hay bales, and re-route the course to not include the creek crossing. I don’t have specific evidence, just hearsay, although the timing of the ruling was suspicious.

If you talked to the runners, they loved the course, primarily due to these obstacles. I have seen a few runners trip and fall in the creek over the years, but I haven’t seen any injuries. The fallen runners usually just get up, embarrassed, and keep running. Not bad when you consider 3000+ runners navigate the course every year.

IMO, it’s a shame. This sport has evolved into more and more meets being held on flat ground with multiple laps.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
.
Top