14Red
Well-known member
Question for the NBA fans who follow this thread. Would LeBron had been better off staying in Cleveland and finishing his career rather than going to LA??
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nwwarrior09
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I think a good question to ask here is what ability would the Cavaliers have had to put a legitimate contending team around him?
In typical LeBron style, they had an expensive and aging roster with limited draft capital when he exited and the entire thing had to be painfully torn down and rebuilt. The team traded all of their 1st round picks from 2014-17 to accommodate him and was barren of any quality younger talent on cheaper deals. Collin Sexton (2018 pick from Kyrie deal) was the first first round pick they'd made since 2013 that actually played for the team, and that pick was a massive bust. After the Kyrie trade, the only "homegrown" guy they had Lebron's last year was Tristan Thompson (2011 draft).
The only way they could have fielded a serious contender these last four years with a declining and very expensive Kevin Love would have been had Kyrie stayed and consistently been available. Outside of Sexton, they wouldn't have had any of the younger assets they've acquired since then as almost all of them have been draft picks.
14Red
Well-known member
Ok, that's from the basketball side. I should have asked the question differently. My point is this. LeBron's name/ reputation/ legacy is suffering dearly since he went to LA. Sure, business wise he's in great shape. But when aging stars continue to mess around and mess around, I feel their legacies are tarnished. I think if LeBron stayed in Cleveland, finished his career here, his career is viewed much differently. The 2020 title is flawed because of the shortened Covid year and the Lakers are just grasping at straws now. I also feel that the Cavs, while not likely a serious contender with LeBron if he stayed, would had at least been competitive.
nwwarrior09
Well-known member
I don't think legacy played much into his decision to go to LA...it was all about business. In terms of basketball legacy, I imagine he would have had a more favorable reputation when it's all over if he would have stayed in Cleveland. He is one of many greats in the history of the Lakers franchise...and a late career hired gun. He was the franchise in Cleveland, and delivered a title in a place where you're not supposed to win and did it against an all-time great opponent.
In the end I don't think it will hurt where the pundits stack him up against the other all-time greats, but IMO many will view him less favorably as almost all of the other 10-15 guys in that best few ever conversation were effectively with one team their entire career.
14Red
Well-known member
For LeBron, he didn't think about his legacy. I do kind of think like the Miami situation, he thought he'd go to LA and just string up title after title. It was that and business reasons. But like I said, I think if he stays, regardless of winning any more titles, he's viewed much differently, and much more favorably.
nwwarrior09
Well-known member
To the Jeanie subtweet from earlier in the week, it really sounds like the Lakers organization is not happy with LeBron/Klutch trying to get them to outbid themselves and mortgage the future for a 2-3 year "potential championship window" with a 38-40 year old LeBron, injury prone Anthony Davis, and wildly unreliable Kyrie Irving.
There's zero reason to deal multiple first round picks for a star player (Kyrie) that has zero other serious suitors due to his personality faults and unreliability. At the terms it seems the Nets would presently accept, the Lakers would likely be screwed in terms of draft assets through the rest of the decade.
There's zero reason to deal multiple first round picks for a star player (Kyrie) that has zero other serious suitors due to his personality faults and unreliability. At the terms it seems the Nets would presently accept, the Lakers would likely be screwed in terms of draft assets through the rest of the decade.
When will General Managers learn that LeBron really doesn't have the interest of the team, but does thing in his own interest? He makes them trade young players or draft choices for aging vets with whom he is comfortable, then leaves the team barren, with little hope of a quick rebuild. As a non-fan of the Lakers, I hope they do gut their team for Irving; they still won't win the title.
14Red
Well-known member
General Managers know this, they are just powerless against some of the stars of the league. The NBA decided years ago they were going to promote individual players - not teams - in a team sport. The first time a long time coach got into with the star player and the coach got fired, that started all this. Paul Westhead got fired by Magic Johnson, Doug Collins by Michael Jordan so this isn't new. The Lakers are always looking for the "quick fix" and that's just not possible. LeBron isn't a top 20 player anymore and he needs alot of help to win in the playoffs. Young players don't want to play with him so LeBron is stick with his old cronies.
Pretty cool what Damian Lilliard has done in Portland. He's not going to ever win a title, but he's ok with it. He's compensated great, and he realizes the value of being the guy of a franchise. He respects the franchise/ player relationship. KD could take some lessons from the guy.
nwwarrior09
Well-known member
LeBron definitely isn't a top-5 player any more; talking strictly about this upcoming season, there are at least 7 players I'd without a doubt take over him (in no particular order): Curry, Durant, Giannis, Embiid, Jokic, Tatum, and Morant. I'd have him somewhere between 8-20, which includes a lot of other offense-only players like Luka Doncic and Trae Young, the not as offensively elite but two-way players like Kawhi and Paul George, and the could be greats that are injury prone and unreliable like AD, Kyrie and Zion. I feel like there's a lot of fluidity ranking the guys in that 2nd tier.
LeBron still has tremendous offensive skills, good offensive efficiency, and has become a better shooter as he's aged...he just hasn't been good defensively with regularity since he returned to Cleveland from Miami, and he's not as reliable anymore. The 2nd Cavs stint he could still play 75 games a year due to coasting defensively, but over the duration of his Lakers tenure he regularly misses 25-30% of the games now due to injuries and rest. He doesn't have nearly the overall impact he used to have on winning between the lack of defense and missing games.
Kyrie Irving isn't a championship contending move for the Lakers. The year they won the much maligned "bubble championship", the Lakers actually had a very good team before the Covid shutdown because Anthony Davis stayed relatively healthy and had a great year, and they actually had quality depth with legitimate role players and a lot of perimeter shooting. The "pause" ensured they got to the playoffs well rested and healthy. Their current roster is very thin on rotational talent (and IMO their best guy in this regard left in free agency), and they'd be very heavily dependent on everything going perfect with that trio if they acquired Kyrie. The value of the trade IMO would be valueless unless they also manage to swindle from Brooklyn an elite shooter in Joe Harris. To me they'd just become at best a very competitive 2nd round team if healthy that would be roadkill if they managed to get to the Western Conference Finals. If Durant gets to the Suns I don't think they'd have any chance of getting out of the second round. They just don't have the talent/depth at the 4th-8th spots on the roster to beat the top 5-6 teams in a playoff series.
LeBron still has tremendous offensive skills, good offensive efficiency, and has become a better shooter as he's aged...he just hasn't been good defensively with regularity since he returned to Cleveland from Miami, and he's not as reliable anymore. The 2nd Cavs stint he could still play 75 games a year due to coasting defensively, but over the duration of his Lakers tenure he regularly misses 25-30% of the games now due to injuries and rest. He doesn't have nearly the overall impact he used to have on winning between the lack of defense and missing games.
Kyrie Irving isn't a championship contending move for the Lakers. The year they won the much maligned "bubble championship", the Lakers actually had a very good team before the Covid shutdown because Anthony Davis stayed relatively healthy and had a great year, and they actually had quality depth with legitimate role players and a lot of perimeter shooting. The "pause" ensured they got to the playoffs well rested and healthy. Their current roster is very thin on rotational talent (and IMO their best guy in this regard left in free agency), and they'd be very heavily dependent on everything going perfect with that trio if they acquired Kyrie. The value of the trade IMO would be valueless unless they also manage to swindle from Brooklyn an elite shooter in Joe Harris. To me they'd just become at best a very competitive 2nd round team if healthy that would be roadkill if they managed to get to the Western Conference Finals. If Durant gets to the Suns I don't think they'd have any chance of getting out of the second round. They just don't have the talent/depth at the 4th-8th spots on the roster to beat the top 5-6 teams in a playoff series.
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nwwarrior09
Well-known member
Big deal in regards to what this will do to the Suns should they match, as it sounds like they will. This will knock them out of the Durant sweepstakes as Ayton will be untradable until mid-January and can veto all trades for a year.
IMO this is a really expensive price for Ayton's current value. I don't know how moveable he'll be the next couple years, and the Suns are going to be very expensive on paper between just him, Booker, Paul and Bridges for the next 3-4 years. They may not have any real flexibility to make that one move needed to get from contending to actually winning a championship.
IMO this is a really expensive price for Ayton's current value. I don't know how moveable he'll be the next couple years, and the Suns are going to be very expensive on paper between just him, Booker, Paul and Bridges for the next 3-4 years. They may not have any real flexibility to make that one move needed to get from contending to actually winning a championship.
nwwarrior09
Well-known member
Four years and nearly $200 million left on his contract. I don't think I could take this seriously from a management perspective.
nwwarrior09
Well-known member
It doesn't seem like it was that long ago that the Nets had a very fun and young team with Jarrett Allen, Spencer Dinwiddie, D'Angelo Russell, Caris LeVert, etc., and they blew it up for the (soft and) slim reaper, the flat Earther, and briefly James Harden (somehow the least unlikeable of this group) before he was flipped for a physically gifted player with questionable desire to play and near no demonstrated desire to improve.
14Red
Well-known member
And here's the dangers of the NBA. At the time the Nets blew things up and added KD, Kyrie and Harden, it was expected they would be there for at least a few years and bring some high caliber basketball there. Well, because he NBA has a very weak structure and they allow players to run the league, multi-year contracts are one sided. If the player isn't happy for any number of reasons, they balk and get traded. What's a ownership group to do? Players won't sign one year deals. They want the security without the responsibility. Today's younger basketball fans don't care because they follow players and not teams. It's a terrible business model for the NBA and needs fixed.
clarkgriswold
Well-known member
The problem is that they extended their cash on a bitterman (KD), a nut (Kyrie) and a lazy toad (Harden). Spend that money on motivated, unselfish and disciplined players and you get a far different result. Instead, they acted like a 13 year old boy putting together his NBA LIve video game team.
14Red
Well-known member
Unfortunately with Kyrie, it was buyer beware, he's a know nut. KD has gone whacky the last few years. Harden is just old, broken down and out of shape.
My point is more that the NBA needs to find a way to put some teeth into these contracts and not allow players to sign long term deals AND want the player movement as well. I'm perfectly fine if these dudes sign one year contracts and don't handcuff teams moving forward. The Nets are screwed now. They mortgaged their future and now are stuck with malcontents. And I'm perfectly fine with collusion where teams black ball players. KD & Kyrie are bad for the NBA.
14Red
Well-known member
Patrick Beverly attempting to play for every team in the NBA during his career.
Auggie
Well-known member
Holmgren to miss '22-23 season with foot injury
Thunder rookie Chet Holmgren will miss the 2022-23 season because of a Lisfranc injury to his right foot.
www.espn.com
Yet another big man goes down due to bad feet.
14Red
Well-known member
Is there a worse administratively run organization than the NBA? Just this week, they canned yet another old white owner in Phoenix ( or basically are forcing him out) and now the Celtics coach is facing up to a year suspension for having an inappropriate relationship with a female co-worker.
The second one is interesting because at least as of now, there is no plan to fire him, which is generally the course for these. Also while the name of the female hasn't been released, there is only one female on the Celtic coaching staff so she's been outed.
The second one is interesting because at least as of now, there is no plan to fire him, which is generally the course for these. Also while the name of the female hasn't been released, there is only one female on the Celtic coaching staff so she's been outed.
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14Red
Well-known member
I can't name 4 guys on the Clipper roster, and I follow the NBA somewhat.
14Red
Well-known member
Its way too early, but I like what the Sixers have coming into the season. Obviously Embiid's health will be the main reason they are successful, but adding PJ Tucker and Montrez Harrell gives us the toughness that I feel we need. Tobias Harris is still here, Maxey and it's on James Harden to really prove his worth.
I don't care how many players you can name on the Clippers. Do your research on them and you will see how good they are. They could win it all. And i don't like the Clippers.
14Red
Well-known member
I'll believe it when I see it, CantonKid
nwwarrior09
Well-known member
The Clippers probably have one of the 2-3 best rosters in the NBA IMO, and they might have more legitimate role player depth than anyone. They should be a serious championship contender if they can stay healthy.