Mid-State League offseason thread

mslfan20

New member
A small school CCL concept would not replace any league membership. It would be a scheduling agreement and akin to a second league. No mandatory playing of Watty or the other three. The only change would be Ready playing FC, NC and Rosecrans and those schools in addition to the others. Vice versa. NC would still play LCL, other two still play MSL. Football might be tricky but all other sports it would be just one game against the small ones they don’t already play in league.
 

dhsdog06

Well-known member
Everyone wants Buckeye Valley out and I get it. But where would they go? MOAC is at 8 and they made it clear they have no intention of playing the Mansfield area schools. They wouldn't fit at all in the OCC. Too far east for the CBC who is also full.

Like it or not, BV and the MSL are stuck with each other for the forseeable future.
 

The Dock

Well-known member
A small school CCL concept would not replace any league membership. It would be a scheduling agreement and akin to a second league. No mandatory playing of Watty or the other three. The only change would be Ready playing FC, NC and Rosecrans and those schools in addition to the others. Vice versa. NC would still play LCL, other two still play MSL. Football might be tricky but all other sports it would be just one game against the small ones they don’t already play in league.
That's not a bad idea. Secondary league, common denominators and common identity. But, I just don't see it happening. The CCL schools, Ready included, have a lot of pride in the identity and composition of their league as it is. A "second CCL" or a CCL-Small, I fear, could create some bad feelings. If there wasn't an entire round-robin across all eight (the current CCL + BR/FC/NC) playing as a one-size-fits-all CCL -- and why would there be one, the schools have a massive enrollment cliff -- then what would be the point in the eyes of those five (or four, if we set aside Ready) of widening the tent and allowing a second school (one much smaller and outside of Columbus) an opportunity to say that they won "the CCL(-Small)?" The fourth-place in a hypothetical CCL Big would typically be multiple scores better than the first-place of a CCL-Small in any given sport. Plus... what do the CCL schools even think of their smaller-siblings out in the exurbs?
 

LCL

Member
Utica, Northridge keep dodging opponents in the "Big School" division. Now Lakewood has got out of the Division even though they probably should be. Not that Utica should play LH, but they never have. If its going to be a league, then it needs to be a league, not a pick and choose league. I could see LH, WM, LV, Granville, Heath, Johnstown, Newark Catholic, and Zanesville being a strong 8 team league.
 

RollingTrain

Well-known member
Everyone wants Buckeye Valley out and I get it. But where would they go? MOAC is at 8 and they made it clear they have no intention of playing the Mansfield area schools. They wouldn't fit at all in the OCC. Too far east for the CBC who is also full.

Like it or not, BV and the MSL are stuck with each other for the forseeable future.
BV was actually in talks with the CBC before they took NU. Quite frankly they were fools for leaving the MOAC. They aren’t the smartest up there on Coover Rd.
 

The Dock

Well-known member
Utica, Northridge keep dodging opponents in the "Big School" division. Now Lakewood has got out of the Division even though they probably should be. Not that Utica should play LH, but they never have. If its going to be a league, then it needs to be a league, not a pick and choose league. I could see LH, WM, LV, Granville, Heath, Johnstown, Newark Catholic, and Zanesville being a strong 8 team league.
The three questions I would have is...

1) if those three (NR, LW and Utica) did not compete in the LCL anymore, then doesn't that in a sense hollow the league out and take away from the purpose of the league? I'm not saying those three schools put together are movers-and-shakers athletically (although they each have some individually strong programs), but they contribute to the idea of big gates + low travel + historical tradition that resurrected the league -- yeah?

2) It could be that 5-10 years from now NC would be overmatched by Granville, Valley, Heath, Zanesville -- not to mention LH and WM if they can play to their own numerical advantage. The current 9-11 boys count for NC is 87 -- my running of the numbers from the ODE website and best educated guessing would put them at 70 boys, grades 9-11, in 2024-2025. Now, NC has a fantastic administration and meeting of the minds in the school and athletic department... not to mention tremendous athletic tradition, pride, frameworks and abilities. I'm sure those numbers could pull up just a little bit and thus playing those big boys wouldn't seem too out of the question, but long-term I see some questions on the viability.

3) sponging off of points #1 and #2 -- if Teays, Hamilton et al form the D2 suburban league that gets floated constantly in the papers and on here, would LH and WM not go with them?


Something to consider! Good stuff so far LCL.
 

LCL

Member
I think the smaller schools were commited initially, thinking back to the heydays of the 80s, but I think that nostalgia has fizzled. LH and WM are in a bind because their enrollment does not reflect their athletes. There are numerous housing developments that are being bought by people from Nepal and Somalia that really dont figure into their athletics. I dont know if either school would want to leave because I think being the big fish in a small pond represents their current athletic prowess. Wins against Granville and Valley both figure into getting into the playoffs. Now throw in a D3 school like Zanesville, who runs middle of the pack, and it can help with points.
In my opinion, the 2 teams with nothing to lose by being in the league are Heath and Johnstown. Both are fairly competetive in all their sports. Both are mostly successful against higher division foes, so I think its a no brainer to stay put.
The elephant in the room is Newark Catholic. They are the smallest, but benefit from playing up if they can to get to tourney and playoff time.
If Catholic were to split off and join a small CCL division they have to play, what Ready?Hartley? they are probably better off being that small fish who can scare the big fish, sorry too many fish analogies.
Nevertheless, if Catholic leaves I dont the league will scramble to find a new opponent. The league vetoed Logan, Newark wont join, unless another D3-D4 team is interested, it would probably stand still at 7.
 

The Dock

Well-known member
I don't think NC would look to leave, at least not if there league stayed the same. Having an LCL Small School is purposeful for them.

Ran some numbers -- per Arbiter, NC had 54 players on their team this past fall. Run that across ODE numbers, and that's 47% of the school's boys population playing football. That is pretty impressive. If they can maintain having 35-50% of their boys playing football, they would be just fine in a current LCL. But if the big and small divisions were eliminated, it could pose some trouble long-term.
 
Liberty Union is back in the Buckeye this year. How well they do is dependent on their depth. They return a lot, but need to reload Line and back ups. We'll see if they have enough for the grind
 
I think the biggest factor in arranging a new schedule is that there are not a ton of schools that want to play Harvest Prep. They finally got them out of the Cardinal, should've been forced 5 years ago. They are a better fit with Academy and Rosecrans, but now the rumor is Grandview Heights wants to change divisions. So that could throw a wrench in things too.

I personally have always been in favor of a tiered situation. Leagues 1, 2, 3 by size or quality, either is fine. Champions move up. Last place moves down a division. Would keep your powerhouses in the upper league, would prevent anyone from truly being a doormat or dominating the lower leagues. You can't help the bottom of the 3rd league, but can you really anyway. You're at least moving the champ out and bringing in a lower win count opponent. It could be scheduled ahead of time. You just swap schedules with the team your switching with. Non league is on your own. I also have seen it done on a 2 year basis. So not based on championships, based on league wins.
 

The Dock

Well-known member
You know, it would never happen because of the City League but...

always felt like Whetstone would be a great addition to the MSL-Ohio.
 

Hartley1

Member
City League is dying. Needs revamped completely. A few of the City League schools would fit well with in the MSL with enrollment decreasing and talent leaving CCS. Most of the City League schools are similar enrollment wise to Hamilton & Whitehall.
 

Zunardo

Well-known member
Just saw your post in another thread about the possibility of SW City Schools leaving the OCC, and partnering with Jonathan Alder in something called a "South Six" league. How can I say this ------- I was intrigued! Would have never crossed my mind, but it was different. The big plus is that it would reunite HT with our old Metro League rivals, Franklin Heights.

I say, bring back the 1970's! :cool:
 

The Dock

Well-known member
Just saw your post in another thread about the possibility of SW City Schools leaving the OCC, and partnering with Jonathan Alder in something called a "South Six" league. How can I say this ------- I was intrigued! Would have never crossed my mind, but it was different. The big plus is that it would reunite HT with our old Metro League rivals, Franklin Heights.

I say, bring back the 1970's! :cool:
In theory this could be done without JA + West Jeff, and instead with some combination across Hamilton Twp or Columbus City Schools such as Briggs and Marion-Franklin!
 
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