Martin RPI

My experience is that Max Preps basketball rankings tend to be the best, but only after enough games have been played to yield enough computer data. In football, the fan-created "Yappi" poll herein and the "Vamps" computer generated polls have generally been the most accurate.
We need to re-introduce the "Yappi" basketball poll once again. Pulling fan-based input from all over the state seems to be the best. Fans actually "think" about this stuff, while coaches and sportswriters don't have time. My 2 cents...
 
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nooks said:
My experience is that Max Preps basketball rankings tend to be the best, but only after enough games have been played to yield enough computer data. In football, the fan-created "Yappi" poll herein and the "Vamps" computer generated polls have generally been the most accurate.
We need to re-introduce the "Yappi" basketball poll once again. Pulling fan-based input from all over the state seems to be the best. Fans actually "think" about this stuff, while coaches and sportswriters don't have time. My 2 cents...
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Vamps had a basketball power ranking for SW region as well that was pretty darn spot on. Points have to be a part of the formula to get most accurate results.
 
If they are going to use RPI as a metric to seed teams they need to wait to do the tournament seeding done once the season is over. This is the only way to get a team's full body of work evaluated. They don't cut the football season playoff points off after week 8 and set the playoffs then.......why would they do this for basketball?
 
falcon6766 said:
If they are going to use RPI as a metric to seed teams they need to wait to do the tournament seeding done once the season is over. This is the only way to get a team's full body of work evaluated. They don't cut the football season playoff points off after week 8 and set the playoffs then.......why would they do this for basketball?
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I believe, though I can't speak for all, a lot of the Martin RPI supporters support this thought. There's certainly a lot of teams in the NW district that have some very meaningful games over the last 2 weeks of the season.
 
Hback said:
I believe, though I can't speak for all, a lot of the Martin RPI supporters support this thought. There's certainly a lot of teams in the NW district that have some very meaningful games over the last 2 weeks of the season.
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The biggest argument against this is trying to get schedules, sites and programs organized in time. Some schools play on Saturday to end season and would have to be on the court 3 days later, the following Tuesday. In football it typically 6-7 days in between.
 
spirit454 said:
The biggest argument against this is trying to get schedules, sites and programs organized in time. Some schools play on Saturday to end season and would have to be on the court 3 days later, the following Tuesday. In football it typically 6-7 days in between.
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Agreed. Logistically it’s tough.

If they could get everyone to end on a Friday (maybe use Saturday only for makeups) and wait until sectional games to start until Wednesday or Thursday - you could maybe do that.
 
Hback said:
I don't believe so this year, due to passing. But I will double check on that.
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The #1 and #2 seeds don't have to go to opposite sides and haven't been required to do so in about 7-8 years. The (somewhat) exception would be in D1 where the teams aren't preassigned to one of the two districts; once the #1 seed places itself in one of the two districts, then the #2 has to go to the other one. I think.
 
spirit454 said:
The biggest argument against this is trying to get schedules, sites and programs organized in time. Some schools play on Saturday to end season and would have to be on the court 3 days later, the following Tuesday. In football it typically 6-7 days in between.
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At least in the SW the sites are predetermined as are the dates and times. It's just a matter of filling out the bracket. Teams preparing for an opponent and resting...that's a different story.
 
Ericles said:
The #1 and #2 seeds don't have to go to opposite sides and haven't been required to do so in about 7-8 years. The (somewhat) exception would be in D1 where the teams aren't preassigned to one of the two districts; once the #1 seed places itself in one of the two districts, then the #2 has to go to the other one. I think.
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This is correct for the D1 draw, 2 used to have to go opposite. Also, looks like this year the Top 8 seeds will have the ability to pass not the top 4 as I stated in an earlier post.
 
Hback said:
For those Joe Eitel fans....could be coming to basketball really soon!

"The Northwest District Athletic Board is looking to use Martin RPI next winter for seeding for boys and girls' tournaments instead of coaches voting on who should receive seed numbers. Last spring at the OHSBCA Spring meeting all the OHSBCA state directors in the room were in favor of Martin RPI for seeding purposes. The NWDAB is looking to be the pilot for this year's tournament seeding in basketball then looking at the rest of the state in future years."
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Hard to take this Martin RPI serious when it has Troy Christian rated ahead of Russia. Raiders beat Troy Christian by 20 plus points.
 
Stirred not Shaken said:
Hard to take this Martin RPI serious when it has Troy Christian rated ahead of Russia. Raiders beat Troy Christian by 20 plus points.
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Points dont matter in Martin RPI. That may as well have been a 1 point game. Russia may be better, but the game with Troy Christian was the night after a big loss to conference rival Miami East, so I seriously doubt Russia is 20 points better when more spacing is provided between tough opponents.

This Martin RPI clearly penalizes tough conferences like the SCAL, in favor of soft conferences, just like the football system does.
 
D4fan said:
Points dont matter in Martin RPI. That may as well have been a 1 point game. Russia may be better, but the game with Troy Christian was the night after a big loss to conference rival Miami East, so I seriously doubt Russia is 20 points better when more spacing is provided between tough opponents.

This Martin RPI clearly penalizes tough conferences like the SCAL, in favor of soft conferences, just like the football system does.
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How is that? Coming into the weekend Russia had 1 loss (Jackson Center), to Troy Christians 3.
 
Stirred not Shaken said:
How is that? Coming into the weekend Russia had 1 loss (Jackson Center), to Troy Christians 3.
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Playing in a conference with more large schools (4 games vs D2, 4 games vs D3, 6 games vs D4) gives some padding to strength of schedule. Then add in wins over Miami East, Cedarville, Tri Village and that is a bunch of points in the wins over opponents who have a bunch of wins category. So, scheduling games vs slightly weaker opponents in conferences that are weak, should just like football give you huge computer points. The SCAL beats up on each other so they all get a fair share of losses, which hurts their points in the RPI formula when they get a win over a good team that is 1- a small school and 2- in a conference where they play each other twice and good teams lose games making their percentage lower.

To fix the problem I would propose a percentage of the formula being dedicated to points . A 15 point win over a very good team should give you additional points, just as a very good team losing to another very good team by 15 points should cost them more than losing by 1-3 points (a one possession game).

I am in complete agreement with you that if Troy Christian were in the Piqua D4 tourney, I would seed them below Russia. But, knowing how the formula works, it is clear how TC jumps over Russia with the schedule they have played, and the good teams they have beaten.
 
FWIW......Both Antwerp and Marion Local's head coaches tweeted their frustration with Martin RPI in the last couple of days
 
D4fan said:
This Martin RPI clearly penalizes tough conferences like the SCAL, in favor of soft conferences, just like the football system does.
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I don't think it penalizes for a tough conference, I think the current formula cannot distinguish between a tough or soft league. IT looks at everyone with a win or a loss the same
 
SWOHHoops said:
FWIW......Both Antwerp and Marion Local's head coaches tweeted their frustration with Martin RPI in the last couple of days
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Not sure why ML's coach would have any issue with it. ML is first in their District and the rest of the district looks almost exactly like you'd think it would be if coaches were doing the seeding? Antwerp may have a beef but not sure it would be any different if coaches were doing the seeds. They are #3, and just beat #1 Patrick Henry and they have the same record, but really don't have any other real good wins. PH's other two losses were to D2's Napoleon and Wauseon.
 
tcgobucks said:
Not sure why ML's coach would have any issue with it. ML is first in their District and the rest of the district looks almost exactly like you'd think it would be if coaches were doing the seeding? Antwerp may have a beef but not sure it would be any different if coaches were doing the seeds. They are #3, and just beat #1 Patrick Henry and they have the same record, but really don't have any other real good wins. PH's other two losses were to D2's Napoleon and Wauseon.
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Maybe because it is just plain stupid to use it in seeding teams. Football seeding is not a big deal, Marion Local or a Kirtland could be" seeded " no.1 or no.4 in football and it would really not matter, basketball seeding is more important, upsets happen more in bball than in football. Any system that has a team that lost by 25 pts. in the regular season yet has that team ranked higher than the team that they lost to is seriously flawed.
 
Stirred not Shaken said:
Maybe because it is just plain stupid to use it in seeding teams. Football seeding is not a big deal, Marion Local or a Kirtland could be" seeded " no.1 or no.4 in football and it would really not matter, basketball seeding is more important, upsets happen more in bball than in football. Any system that has a team that lost by 25 pts. in the regular season yet has that team ranked higher than the team that they lost to is seriously flawed.
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That's why we settle things on the court.
 
spirit454 said:
75% of the NWO coaches voted in favor of using the RPI. I don't believe anyone ever said it was unanimous.
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Two respectable coaches of prominent teams publicly voiced their frustration, no matter how you spin it that is bad PR for your RPI.
tcgobucks said:
Not sure why ML's coach would have any issue with it.
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Antwerp's coach tweeted (paraphrasing) that it is crazy they won and their RPI number dropped and said "this can't be right" multiple times. ML's coach quote tweeted it and said "? how can this be?" Some former coaches and media members commented their disagreement/concerns about RPI while some voiced their support, similar to how this thread has gone.
 
SWOHHoops said:
Two respectable coaches of prominent teams publicly voiced their frustration, no matter how you spin it that is bad PR for your RPI.

Antwerp's coach tweeted (paraphrasing) that it is crazy they won and their RPI number dropped and said "this can't be right" multiple times. ML's coach quote tweeted it and said "? how can this be?" Some former coaches and media members commented their disagreement/concerns about RPI while some voiced their support, similar to how this thread has gone.
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Looks like his tweet was after they beat 2-14 Holgate. Beating a 2-14 team is actually dropping their SOS which is a part of the RPI. Also the fact that Antwerp's opponents winning percentage is 43% could have hurt them. If a lot of their previous opponents happened to lose that same night it's easily possible that the RPI could drop the .0014 points that it did.
 
tcgobucks said:
Looks like his tweet was after they beat 2-14 Holgate. Beating a 2-14 team is actually dropping their SOS which is a part of the RPI. Also the fact that Antwerp's opponents winning percentage is 43% could have hurt them. If a lot of their previous opponents happened to lose that same night it's easily possible that the RPI could drop the .0014 points that it did.
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I agree, it seems to make sense within the formula. I think it was more of how does it make sense that we would use a ranking system where your "value" decreases when you win.
 
Philly_Cat said:
D1 R4 RPI looks fine
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I could make some arguments with region 8 biggest being Tipp so high, their schedule (mostly because of their league) is bad.
Same with Madeira in Region 12

Region 16 has a minor glaring error....TC ahead of Russia. Russia plays in a much tougher league and beat TC by 26. No justification for that. Also, having any Cincinnati team, let alone three or four, ahead of Cedarville, SCC, FL and Botkins is silly.
 
SWOHHoops said:
Two respectable coaches of prominent teams publicly voiced their frustration, no matter how you spin it that is bad PR for your RPI.
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I personally know one of them and he would complain about something in a system that seeds him #1 with a direct bye to district finals.
 
Martin looks ok to me in the Central District. At least give him credit for running down the scores which I thought would have been impossible. Around here there are black holes like Westerville and Worthington.
 
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