So let's take out the "playing the top 22 teams" because that's not going to happen. If you are a team that loses to the Top 10 teams on your schedule by 2 points each, I can agree that that team could still be very, very good.....BUT they had better have gone 10-2 against the remaining 12 teams on their schedule lol. Kinda the point of the Dayton Roth scenario above. They lost to the big boys, but beat up on the rest. The tourney proved that they were good...and their tough schedule prepared them for the tourney run
Martin RPI
- Thread starter Hback
- Start date
I think you hit on what I stated about seeding in another thread on here. If a coach believes they should be the one seed, but instead are denied that and given a lower seed, they are not losing any sleep over it as they still believe they can go on the board at any slot and win. Fans get much more concerned about seeding than coaches (most of the time).
I was just taking the opportunity to "be offended". I knew what you were intending.
You just totally changed the scenario, but if a team goes 10-12 and loses to the top 10 teams on their schedule they should not be ranked above those 10 teams unless they had some poor losses. IMO, playing a tough schedule is a great idea but if you finish 7-15 you are not a good team. Doesn't mean you can't catch fire and make a tournament run though.
Diebler33
Member
If anyone is butthurt about how the rankings look after 6 weeks of a 12-week regular season then that's a you problem buddy...These rankings mean absolutely nothing until the end of the regular season. The more games are played, the more accurate the rankings get. Do people not understand that??? Blows my mind. Imagine getting furious at the Harbin ratings after Week 5 because you don't like where your favorite team is ranked in its region...
jj150
Active member
You can’t argue with this rpi it is the end all of calculations. Is better than sliced bread, smoother than silk and just perfect in every aspect. Just trust it. Your eyes are worthless and common sense is BS. I finally got it. Let the kid make his buck no need to question anything, he has it all figured out.
I agree with you that it is currently a small sample size, but the same thing will generally happen, teams that win will move up and teams that don't won't. I get that generally teams that win are ranked higher, but those of us that don't like this as a seeding tool rely on the eye-test to say a 12-8 team is better than a 17-3 team because of schedule. It's not hard to acknowledge that.
The problem is the wide range and variety of each individuals “eye test”. It could and likely does vary from person to person. With a uniform system in place, it eliminates that variability.
Is it perfect? Of course not. Nothing is. Like we’ve discussed before the state is looking for something ALL districts can use and support. It has blown my mind that different parts of the state handle STATE TOURNAMANET procedures differently across the board.
We’re always quick to give blame to the OHSAA (myself included), but I think they are on to something here and are trying for something everyone can use. I’m guessing tweaks will be made to the formula as each year passes as well.
Alas, if you have a good team - you are going to be just fine…regardless of the system.
All reasonable points, but I think over the years the aggregated eye-test of the coaches in SWOH has produced the most accurate ranking of teams.
I have said many times this discussion falls one of two ways, I love the eye-test of the coaches and believe it is the best ranking..... or..... coaches have bias so the best ranking is a computer system that treats everyone the same but may not be accurate. It's perfectly reasonable to say the RPI is flawed but I support it because it treats everyone equally. The legal counsel for the RPI (@spirit454) continually tries to justify completely outlier rankings like D3 last year and (although early) Pick Central this year.
Here’s the thing, though: the state hasn’t handled things at the lower tournament levels. They decided (rightly, in my eyes) that these very different parts of the state just might have a better idea on how to run their own tournaments in order to send the best teams to the actual state tournament.
It sounds like they’re moving toward uniformity across the state, which I don’t think is the best way.
Philly_Cat
Well-known member
Some of you would have your head explode if you moved to PA where not only does a computer system rank the teams across the state, but not everyone even makes the post season. Plus, they are bracketed by their seed (no coaches picking), and as a cherry on top, you could even lose a playoff game and still win the state championship! PURE MADNESS!!! 
@jafo Definitely not, but it does impact the order teams go in the bracket which impacts match-upsSome of you would have your head explode if you moved to PA where not only does a computer system rank the teams across the state, but not everyone even makes the post season. Plus, they are bracketed by their seed (no coaches picking), and as a cherry on top, you could even lose a playoff game and still win the state championship! PURE MADNESS!!!
@Philly_Cat In a scenario where not everyone makes it I would be all for the RPI being used for both seeding and placement like football here. Schools would adjust scheduling to make sure they get the points (since playing tough against a great schedule gets you nothing unless you win) to get in the playoffs like they do in football.
Exactly, So a team may have to a team they wouldn't with a different format but you may get better games.
Ohio football has this and people are complaining because there are to many teams making it. With 7 divisions and 28 total regions we have some very unworthy teams making the playoffs in Ohio that has traditionally only been for the top teams in the state.Some of you would have your head explode if you moved to PA where not only does a computer system rank the teams across the state, but not everyone even makes the post season. Plus, they are bracketed by their seed (no coaches picking), and as a cherry on top, you could even lose a playoff game and still win the state championship! PURE MADNESS!!!
So yesterday Pick Central played Cathedral who is defending Indiana state champ and ranked 3rd right now. PC was up by 23 but couldn't hold on and lost by 4.
PC started the day ranked 27th in Ohio by RPI and fell to 34th after that game. Common sense says PC is a top 5 team in Ohio while the RPI says they are outside the top 30. The RPI is too dependent on wins and losses to be a ranking of best teams, it is just a team order based on someone's math formula.
PC started the day ranked 27th in Ohio by RPI and fell to 34th after that game. Common sense says PC is a top 5 team in Ohio while the RPI says they are outside the top 30. The RPI is too dependent on wins and losses to be a ranking of best teams, it is just a team order based on someone's math formula.
How many 3s did Cathedral hit in the first half? How many in the second? How many cathedral starters were on the bench in the first half with foul trouble? Since you compared them to their season last year, did Cathedral graduate any players or did they all return?
Talk some sense
Active member
Cathedral is ranked 3rd is what he wrote. Very good team - beat Centerville in 1st game of the season by 6.
I believe they are ranked 3rd in Indiana. I was asking more about the game since he described the turnaround from being up to losing.
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green_genes
Well-known member
They're 8th out of 49 teams in their region. That's all that matters. Rossford is somewhere around 24th in D2, but 2nd in their district behind Toledo Central Catholic.
In a situation like D2 in NW Ohio where there are 9 teams in 5 different leagues, having some way to differentiate themselves other than "the eye test" makes sense.
Rossford has beaten Perrysburg and Defiance - and lost to D4 Kalida. They beat the #6 team in D2 in Michigan by 29 points last night. The "eye test" largely depends on what night you happen to see them play. Perrysburg lost to Rossford, but destroyed Whitmer at Whitmer. Sometimes teams look bad against league teams because they know each other so well...and sometimes they look great against a non-league foe on a Saturday night if one team has prepped for the game and the other hasn't.
Ha, the lawyer is back, dodge and weave!
Philly_Cat
Well-known member
And now we are back to people wanting credit for losing games [sigh]
Dude, they are 8th in their region. Their state ranking is honestly, meaningless, unless personal feelings have meaning in all this. Again, 8th in their region. I don't know the rest of Pick Central's schedule or others in their region or league, but normally the last month of high school basketball's regular season sees teams playing teams in their region and leagues almost exclusively. More local teams playing each other helps start to balance out what you would consider "discrepancies" in computer rankings.
I'm thinking by the end of the regular season PC may not make it to top in their region, but will probably end up at least top 5 or even 3. That's assuming they are actually as good as you think they are. Would top 5 or top 3 be acceptable to you?
If this is a system just to order teams based mainly on winning %, no.
If this is a ranking system trying to determine the best team at the top, followed by the 2nd best and so on.....100% yes!
There are no perfect options. There are flaws to Coach's voting and flaws to a computer system. I developed a SWO RPI (based on similar metrics to Martin), but feel as if I adjusted for league strength a little better. Here's the top 10 in D1...
Edit: This is just D1 in Cincinnati district!
Edit: This is just D1 in Cincinnati district!
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Interesting piece in the online Van Wert newspaper. Really small sample size, but the comments are interesting nonetheless. Check out Scott Truxell's random thoughts in sports.
thevwindependent.com
thevwindependent.com
Interesting that a coach feels like most in the area are against it and it was forced on them. I would have followed up with "how was it approved if you think most coaches are against it"? I don't remember for sure if it was a coaches vote that approved it or administrator, but pretty sure coaches so that is an odd statement.
The only reason for using it is that it treats everyone the same and if that is the goal, it is the best we have. If the goal of seeding is to rank the teams from best to worst as it always has been, coaches voting is the most appropriate way to do it.
Talk some sense
Active member
Sorry but any system that doesn't have Centerville in the top 10 is fundamentally flawed. Metrics, W/L, SOS, and eye test all say at least top 5. Sorry just noticed you are doing one district but your post doesn't say that.
Yes, currently is just the Cincinnati district. Should have Dayton by the end of the week!
NO dodge, I asked a question that nobody answered. You tried using a game to make your point but do not seem to know anything about the game. Many teams lose games that they led in at one point. Many situations can hurt teams in the second quarter but all play 32 minutes last I checked.