Loveland/Milford

I wasnt suggesting that Simon Kenton is bad opponent. Oak Hills has opponents right here in the Cincy. Oak Hills should be playing Elder week two. Princeton should be playing Moeller instead of Withrow.
Why should Oak Hills play Elder to get demolished? What does Elder gain, definitely not any Harbin points. Same for Princeton, why should they play Moeller to get dismantled? What would Moeller gain? Princeton hasn't had a winning season in forever and there is no reason to believe that this season will be any different.

Look, I like traditional rivalries as much as anyone, but the two you mention don't make any sense at all. Oak Hills got really smart with their scheduling, IF they can pull off 5 wins, they are definitely in the playoff hunt. I don't think they will win that many, but if they win those first 2, then they are off to a great start in boosting confidence for the program.
 

DonMagicRon

Active member
Why should Oak Hills play Elder to get demolished? What does Elder gain, definitely not any Harbin points. Same for Princeton, why should they play Moeller to get dismantled? What would Moeller gain? Princeton hasn't had a winning season in forever and there is no reason to believe that this season will be any different.

Look, I like traditional rivalries as much as anyone, but the two you mention don't make any sense at all. Oak Hills got really smart with their scheduling, IF they can pull off 5 wins, they are definitely in the playoff hunt. I don't think they will win that many, but if they win those first 2, then they are off to a great start in boosting confidence for the program.
Elder and Moeller both play teams from Canada. Do you honsetly think they would rather play canadian teams or D1 schools that dont generate a ton of level 2 points. The attitude at Princeton and Oak Hills (and other places) should be we either improve as a program or we are going to keep getting our teeth kicked in. (If the GCL could kicked their teeth in)
 
Elder and Moeller both play teams from Canada. Do you honsetly think they would rather play canadian teams or D1 schools that dont generate a ton of level 2 points. The attitude at Princeton and Oak Hills (and other places) should be we either improve as a program or we are going to keep getting our teeth kicked in. (If the GCL could kicked their teeth in)
Probably a local team, but if the Canada team wins more than 3 games, Elder and Moeller will get more points from the Canada team most likely depending on size of school, wins, etc. For Oak Hills and Princeton, they need to get some Ws to build up the program to get to a point to where they can actually compete with those GCL schools. For Oak Hills especially, beating teams that perennially win 8+ wins would be a great start to build that confidence. I know they aren't Ohio caliber teams, but still in the Tri-State area and local.
 

DonMagicRon

Active member
Probably a local team, but if the Canada team wins more than 3 games, Elder and Moeller will get more points from the Canada team most likely depending on size of school, wins, etc. For Oak Hills and Princeton, they need to get some Ws to build up the program to get to a point to where they can actually compete with those GCL schools. For Oak Hills especially, beating teams that perennially win 8+ wins would be a great start to build that confidence. I know they aren't Ohio caliber teams, but still in the Tri-State area and local.
Sir, the conversation has been good. It is getting me ready for some football action. But we will just agree to disagree. And, IMO, there are alot of examples of the GMC scheduling being subpar. I believe in Week 1 4 GCL schools should play 4 GMC schools and Week 2 the 4 GCL schools should play 4 more GMC schools. IMO the 4 GCL schools should play St. Ignatius and St. Eds every season. But these our just my opinion and carries no weight. But again this is good conversation with you.
 
Sir, the conversation has been good. It is getting me ready for some football action. But we will just agree to disagree. And, IMO, there are alot of examples of the GMC scheduling being subpar. I believe in Week 1 4 GCL schools should play 4 GMC schools and Week 2 the 4 GCL schools should play 4 more GMC schools. IMO the 4 GCL schools should play St. Ignatius and St. Eds every season. But these our just my opinion and carries no weight. But again this is good conversation with you.
I agree with GMC scheduling being subpar. I also agree 100% that 4 GMC schools should play the 4 GCL schools, but I think it should only be Colerain, Mason, Fairfield, and Sycamore or West, and week 2 they should play a different GCL school. I don't think any of the other GMC schools stand a chance of keeping it within 45 points of any GCL school, so that would be a waste for everyone. While coaching I have been on both sides of such lopsided games, and they really serve no purpose for any team. They demoralize one program and do nothing to actually prepare the other team for later and unavoidable tougher games. I am guessing that you get frustrated when WW has beaten the tar out of teams that the Warriors had no business playing in the first place.

Like you, the previous is just my opinion and typically nobody cares about my opinion either, just ask my wife!
 

DonMagicRon

Active member
I agree with GMC scheduling being subpar. I also agree 100% that 4 GMC schools should play the 4 GCL schools, but I think it should only be Colerain, Mason, Fairfield, and Sycamore or West, and week 2 they should play a different GCL school. I don't think any of the other GMC schools stand a chance of keeping it within 45 points of any GCL school, so that would be a waste for everyone. While coaching I have been on both sides of such lopsided games, and they really serve no purpose for any team. They demoralize one program and do nothing to actually prepare the other team for later and unavoidable tougher games. I am guessing that you get frustrated when WW has beaten the tar out of teams that the Warriors had no business playing in the first place.

Like you, the previous is just my opinion and typically nobody cares about my opinion either, just ask my wife!
I think Princeton would be Moeller right now. And things change year to year. Only obligate 8 GMC schools to play one GCL school each season example:

Week 1:
Princeton v Moeller
Colerain v St. X
Oak Hills v Elder
Lakota West v LaSalle

Week 2:
Fairfield v St. X
Mason v Moeller
Hamilton v LaSalle
Sycamore v Elder

These 8 GMC schools still have another week to schedule who ever. Winton Woods, Wayne, Milford, St. Benard, or whoever. And rotate the GMC schools year to year to give Lakota East and Middletown some action.
 

DonMagicRon

Active member
That would be 2 games for the GCL schools, plus the 3 conference games, plus St. Eds and Iggy equals 7. Then they could fill the other 3 spots with whoever. The GWOC schools, and Columbus area schools would still be searching to fill schedules.Heck, LaSalle can play Edgewood. Elder v Harrison. It shouldnt be as hard and as political as it is.
 

DonMagicRon

Active member
I am guessing that you get frustrated when WW has beaten the tar out of teams that the Warriors had no business playing in the first place
Its not frustrating because I knew it was just a matter of time. Whats going to be frustrating is watching Winton Woods slide back into the pack as a result of joining a conference. I'll give it 5 seasons. But these first two or three are going to be U-G-L-Y. A combination of our JV/Freshmen teams could had beat the ECC champion each of the past two seasons.
 

Vincent and Regina

Active member
Scheduling is an art and every school must put their own priorities first. With that said, I still think some schools schedule weak. It goes back to Rick Flair, "To be that man, you have to beat the man".

I think Simon Kenton can give Oak Hills a run for their money. Indepence is growing in NKY, and they are sort of becoming the new Highlands. I haven't seen either team, but I would pick Simon Kenton if it were based on history.

I like the idea of the GMC playing the GCL in weeks 1 and 2, but It goes back to doing what is best for their school.

Elder has a "natural" rivalry with Oak Hills. I know from personal experience I had cousins that went to Oak Hills and it made for a fun game for us. If you go back in the day Elder/West Hi was the biggest game in the city in the 60's and 70s. Things change, so you know why that game is no longer played.

Colerain could be matched up with LaSalle, X, and Elder we have all had our battles back in the say and are relatively in the same areas.

Moeller and Princeton was the biggest game in the 80 or so. Plus Moeller is right down the street from Sycamore so those two games would be fun.

LaSalle and Oak Hills could be another neighborhood rivalry.

I could go on and one about neighborhood rivals, but it doesn't always work.

I respect Winton Woods a lot because when they got dropped by the old FAVC (I know it is more complicated than that ) They stepped up and started playing the GCL. I am a little worried that when thy go to the ECC, in 5 years they might go down hill because of the lack of competition.

The Canadian School Elder is playing might winn a few games, but I don't see them going .500. They play Mentor, Ignatius, X, Eds, and Elder. The first game they play against Bishop Sycamore out of somewhere in Columbus probably won't count. They beat Cathedral Prep and Lorain last year so I don't see them getting 5 wins.

When Region 4 went to 18 team the In-playing of leagues went down a little, but it still in affect. If you think about it in Weeks 3-10 the GMC will go .500. So those first 2 games mean a lot in harbin points.

Great points are being made, but when it comes down to it, Friday's should be this community playing that community and hopefully 200 miles aren't between the two communities.
 

ghsknightsfan

New member
I think Princeton would be Moeller right now. And things change year to year. Only obligate 8 GMC schools to play one GCL school each season example:

Week 1:
Princeton v Moeller
Colerain v St. X
Oak Hills v Elder
Lakota West v LaSalle

Week 2:
Fairfield v St. X
Mason v Moeller
Hamilton v LaSalle
Sycamore v Elder

These 8 GMC schools still have another week to schedule who ever. Winton Woods, Wayne, Milford, St. Benard, or whoever. And rotate the GMC schools year to year to give Lakota East and Middletown some action.
i like this idea but most of the GWOC teams play GMC/ECC teams in OOC. for example, Mason/Springboro, Fairfield/Centerville, Wayne/Colerain, Miamisburg/Northwest, Centerville/Lakota West, Springboro/Middletown, Springfield/Fairfield, Miamisburg/Loveland, and Fairmont/Milford are just a couple recent matchups that come to mind.
 

DonMagicRon

Active member
i like this idea but most of the GWOC teams play GMC/ECC teams in OOC. for example, Mason/Springboro, Fairfield/Centerville, Wayne/Colerain, Miamisburg/Northwest, Centerville/Lakota West, Springboro/Middletown, Springfield/Fairfield, Miamisburg/Loveland, and Fairmont/Milford are just a couple recent matchups that come to mind.
My plan still leaves room for these matchups. In my plan the GMC is the newcleus. The GMC has two non conference slots. One slot would be a GCL team the other slot could be whomever and there would always be 2 GMC schools that wouldnt have to play a GCL school. There is plenty of meat on the bone for everybody if the political nonsense went away. Let me make the schedule of all teams in SWO. The public schools are the problem and have all the leverage.
 

lotr10

Well-known member
I think a lot of what's being said about scheduling is opinion not fact.

* Colerain has been in a league that they have dominated for 20 years yet no one would say that the level of competition they've faced has hurt them in the playoffs. And Hillaird Davidson won D1 state titles in 2006 & 2009 playing in what was at the time a pretty average conference. I know we've beaten this argument to death but there's NO evidence that in D1, public schools benefit in the playoffs by playing tougher regular season schedules.

* With the exception of just a couple of programs in the State, D1 public schools go through cycles of being good, bad and average. Cincifbfan said Fairfield should be one of the 4 GMC teams that plays a GCLS team. How quickly people forget that it wasn't that long ago (2006 - 2012) that the Indians were arguably the worst D1 program in the state of Ohio. LW was a regular playoff team that sometimes even advanced beyond the 1st round. But recently they've been a disaster. Think about Middletown under Krause versus the Middies today.

* As others have said scheduling has to meet the needs of the school districts. I suspect that GMC/GWOC football games are attractive in part by the ability to schedule decent Region 3 opposition and the ability to then schedule these schools in other boys & girls sports.

* Would I rather see FF play at Saint X then at Springfield in week 2? Yes I would but for selfish reasons. Because the trip would be a hell of a lot shorter. But then again when playing an 8 game GMC schedule a win against Region 3 SF offers the potential for a lot more Harbin points then a win (however unlikely) against Region 4 St. X.

* As for WW in the ECC who knows? They might take a page from Colerain's experience and dominate the league for the next 20 years. On the other hand if they "fade" away and someone else in the conference wins the title it may have nothing to do with not playing as tough a schedule anymore. It may have more to do with running into an ECC program that resembles those Anderson powerhouses or maybe one that is a one year wonder like that 2013 Loveland team. Either way somebody in the ECC might get good enough to take the title away from WW.
 

DonMagicRon

Active member
IMO, the biggest issue is publics attempting to schedule to make the playoffs. It doesnt matter who is on your schedule just win 7 games. If you cant win 7 games then you dont belong in the playoffs. Heck in R4 you have a 50% chance of qualifying for the post season with 6 wins. I feel that Winton Woods could schedule any 10 teams from SWO and win 7 of those games every year and if we cant then we have to get better, not schedule "softer".
Milford definitely should not had scheduled Loveland twice and I frankly expected more out of a Grippa led program.
 
I don't know why the GMC does it this way, it seems to be how every conference does it now. It started 10+ years ago, that's how Elder Oak Hills game got bumped from the week 10 game. Originally the GMC wanted to set up football rivalries with making sure every school got partnered with a "sister school" if you will for week 10. It was mostly geography East and West, Colerain and Oak Hills, etc. You would play that team every single year and rotate the other teams in the conference. That went away a few years ago and now they just rotate through the schools.

But to answer your question, I don't know exactly what it is that each conference wants to play only conference games on weeks 3-10 or 4-10.
 

DonMagicRon

Active member
The GMC, ECC, GWOC all schedule their out of conference games in the first two or three weeks of the season. Weeks 3 thru 10 will be conference play for the ECC and GMC. This is a big problem for Elder, Moeller and Trotwood. Winton Woods will only have two early seasons slots and wont be able to schedule all three. WW has long history with all three so how do you choose who to play? Elder is probably the biggest Harbin cow. Trotwood is headed into the badlands of being an independent so one has to think Winton Woods would keep themselves available to them in week one. The SWOC has an uneven number so there are some weeks available at times during the season. Harrison needs to step up and play Elder and Edgewood will be searching for a replacement game for Winton Woods, Trotwood could be another good fit for Edgewood.
 

Vincent and Regina

Active member
The GMC, ECC, GWOC all schedule their out of conference games in the first two or three weeks of the season. Weeks 3 thru 10 will be conference play for the ECC and GMC. This is a big problem for Elder, Moeller and Trotwood. Winton Woods will only have two early seasons slots and wont be able to schedule all three. WW has long history with all three so how do you choose who to play? Elder is probably the biggest Harbin cow. Trotwood is headed into the badlands of being an independent so one has to think Winton Woods would keep themselves available to them in week one. The SWOC has an uneven number so there are some weeks available at times during the season. Harrison needs to step up and play Elder and Edgewood will be searching for a replacement game for Winton Woods, Trotwood could be another good fit for Edgewood.
A lot of Elder grads have family that live in Harrison and that would be a good game, A few years ago Harrison was given the choice to play Elder in the showdown or not play at all. Well they choose to not play.

If the schools are willing to work, The GMC and ECC could play 8 games and move the games around so their non-conference games are in different weeks. The GMC did it in 2006 when Colerain wanted to play in the Herbie in week 4. It works in college, no reason it wouldn't in HS.
 

DonMagicRon

Active member
A lot of Elder grads have family that live in Harrison and that would be a good game, A few years ago Harrison was given the choice to play Elder in the showdown or not play at all. Well they choose to not play.

If the schools are willing to work, The GMC and ECC could play 8 games and move the games around so their non-conference games are in different weeks. The GMC did it in 2006 when Colerain wanted to play in the Herbie in week 4. It works in college, no reason it wouldn't in HS.
IMO, I would rather my team play the out of conference games in week one and two every season and just focus on the conference play in weeks 3 thru 10 and post season weeks 11 thru 15. I think its a little easier to manage. I dont like an out of conference game to pop up during the league play, if their is an even number of teams in the conference.
 

Vincent and Regina

Active member
IMO, I would rather my team play the out of conference games in week one and two every season and just focus on the conference play in weeks 3 thru 10 and post season weeks 11 thru 15. I think its a little easier to manage. I dont like an out of conference game to pop up during the league play, if their is an even number of teams in the conference.
League games in Ohio mean nothing. A league in Ohio is just a group of schools that have agreed to play each other every year, winning a league does nothing for ?you except ragging rights. I will pick on the GMC some more, which game is more important to Oak Hills? A random league game vs Hamilton, or playing Elder from your same area? It is all how you look at it.
 

lotr10

Well-known member
League games in Ohio mean nothing. A league in Ohio is just a group of schools that have agreed to play each other every year, winning a league does nothing for ?you except ragging rights. I will pick on the GMC some more, which game is more important to Oak Hills? A random league game vs Hamilton, or playing Elder from your same area? It is all how you look at it.
I may be wrong here but I was under the impression that Elder dropped Oak Hills because of Harbin issues?

As for the importance of league championships that depends on the league. When you go to different schools the first thing you notice in their gyms are all those big gaudy banners celebrating LEAGUE championships in everything from girls tennis to football. So it appears they are important to someone.

It comes down to numbers though. In football the measures of success are limited. There are state championships of which only 5 D1 public schools have won since 2000. So that's a long shot. Then there are deep runs in the playoffs - again a pretty select group every year. Making the playoffs is a milestone. While it's not as big a deal in D1 as it used to be it's still a solid measure of success. After that you're left with league championships & having a winning record. IMO a league championship in D1 beats making the playoffs as an achievement.

I would put it another way. Which is more impressive Colerain's ONE state title in 2004 or their winning 19 straight GMC championships?
 

Vincent and Regina

Active member
I agree with lotr10. It seems to me that the GCL South title is the number one goal for those teams. But it is a matter of perspective.
I guess I am more of a numbers guy than anything. From my study of the harbins, I know some games mean more than others mathematically.

With that said you always want to beat your rivals, Since the GCL only has 4 teams they can all become your rivals easily. When you have 10 teams I don't see that as much. I am picking on the GMC again, but are are following games big rivals?

Hamilton vs Sycamore
Sycamore vs Oak Hills
Oak Hills vs Mason
Oak Hills vs Middletown
Middletown vs Sycamore

Those are just league games, kid of like Ohio State vs Iowa, they are just there to fill the schedule. Elder has played Eds for the last dozen or so years, I want Elder to win that game, but Eds is not a rival of Elder.

I personally would love Elder to win every year, but making the playoffs is my first hope GCL is in there, but not as high as the playoffs. Winning the GCL does not qualify you for the playoffs, so it is more icing than cake. Think about it like this in 2009 Colerain won the GMC, but didn't make the playoffs.
 

OUcats82

Active member
I guess I am more of a numbers guy than anything. From my study of the harbins, I know some games mean more than others mathematically.

With that said you always want to beat your rivals, Since the GCL only has 4 teams they can all become your rivals easily. When you have 10 teams I don't see that as much. I am picking on the GMC again, but are are following games big rivals?

Hamilton vs Sycamore
Sycamore vs Oak Hills
Oak Hills vs Mason
Oak Hills vs Middletown
Middletown vs Sycamore

Those are just league games, kid of like Ohio State vs Iowa, they are just there to fill the schedule. Elder has played Eds for the last dozen or so years, I want Elder to win that game, but Eds is not a rival of Elder.

I personally would love Elder to win every year, but making the playoffs is my first hope GCL is in there, but not as high as the playoffs. Winning the GCL does not qualify you for the playoffs, so it is more icing than cake. Think about it like this in 2009 Colerain won the GMC, but didn't make the playoffs.
All I know is I've always been hoping that something would spark a rivalry between Oak Hills and Sycamore so they could start billing the game "The Lumber Bowl" and the winner gets a big slab of wood every year. Sounds like something that would exist in the Big 10 LOL.

But you are correct. With the territory the GMC covers and the different lengths of time each member has been in, there are games that are just there to fill the schedule that don't have much other meaning. How often will a kid from Bridgetown cross paths with a kid from Middletown? Sycamore and Hamilton kids don't cross paths at the mall.

Heck even growing up in Colerain it seemed like any rivalry between the Cards and Oak Hills was pretty much non-existent. Anytime I had on Cardinal gear around Western Hills etc. growing up most people were more complimentary or cordial than insulting or mean.

I would argue that rivalries in general at the high school level have cooled off quite a bit outside of the GCL from what I see at least.
 

Vincent and Regina

Active member
I may be wrong here but I was under the impression that Elder dropped Oak Hills because of Harbin issues?
I am not in the know, but I do believe that is the case. In 2017 Elder missed the playoffs because they did not beat LaSalle in Week 10, but had any team they beat won one more game, Elder was in. Oak Hills at 0-10 is the easiest to blame for that.
 

playboi12

Member
I may be wrong here but I was under the impression that Elder dropped Oak Hills because of Harbin issues?

As for the importance of league championships that depends on the league. When you go to different schools the first thing you notice in their gyms are all those big gaudy banners celebrating LEAGUE championships in everything from girls tennis to football. So it appears they are important to someone.

It comes down to numbers though. In football the measures of success are limited. There are state championships of which only 5 D1 public schools have won since 2000. So that's a long shot. Then there are deep runs in the playoffs - again a pretty select group every year. Making the playoffs is a milestone. While it's not as big a deal in D1 as it used to be it's still a solid measure of success. After that you're left with league championships & having a winning record. IMO a league championship in D1 beats making the playoffs as an achievement.

I would put it another way. Which is more impressive Colerain's ONE state title in 2004 or their winning 19 straight GMC championships?
The one state title in 2004. No cares about just winning league. It’s state or nothing at all.
 

OUcats82

Active member
The one state title in 2004. No cares about just winning league. It’s state or nothing at all.
I'd trade in all of the GMC championships for one more state title.

Don't get me wrong, a lot of people have worked really hard for decades to build and preserve the program and their accomplishments are certainly admirable. But nothing trumps a state title in my book.
 

lotr10

Well-known member
The one state title in 2004. No cares about just winning league. It’s state or nothing at all.
Humans don't operate that way. All or nothing is never the only measure of success. If it was we'd still be living in caves beating animals over the head with stone axes.
 

lotr10

Well-known member
I'd trade in all of the GMC championships for one more state title.

Don't get me wrong, a lot of people have worked really hard for decades to build and preserve the program and their accomplishments are certainly admirable. But nothing trumps a state title in my book.
I don't know. Take Fairfield. On the one hand the 1986 State Title was an amazing achievement. But would an Indian fan trade that away for say Centerville's record of success since 1986? I use CV as the example because they have conststantly done very well over the last 30 years but have not won a state championship.

For me it's a tough question. But winning conference titles is no small thing and IMO what Colerain has done winning 19 straight GMC titles is every bit as impressive as winning a single state title.
 
I don't know. Take Fairfield. On the one hand the 1986 State Title was an amazing achievement. But would an Indian fan trade that away for say Centerville's record of success since 1986? I use CV as the example because they have conststantly done very well over the last 30 years but have not won a state championship.

For me it's a tough question. But winning conference titles is no small thing and IMO what Colerain has done winning 19 straight GMC titles is every bit as impressive as winning a single state title.
Well said and interesting point.
 
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