Is it time to get rid of Neutral site games in playoffs?

AllSports12 said:
And again.....

What site that's equidistant to both schools offered their facility?

The OHSAA has always made it clear in their tournament manager's manual that "neutral" does not mean the same travel. (impossible to pull off throughout the state) It's defined as either team playing more than half their home games at that site.

They also make it clear that equal travel is not in the mix. (again, impossible to execute) A shorter distance to travel does not make it a home game.
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So a 5 minute travel time wouldn't benefit a school is what you are saying.....seriously, that doesn't make it a home game?

It should go to the higher seed as their reward for having a great season, not traveling further than a school seeded below you.

We also talk a lot about how it's all about money, if that were true, only 1 team would travel. That would save significant amounts of money for 2 more rounds of playoffs. If you don't want to travel, do better in the regular season to get a higher seed.
 
BirdDog10 said:
There's countless of pages of comments on here, Twitter, Facebook, everywhere you look of people complaining about Harbin's every year, so whether or not you or I agree that they're the best system, your argument for home games later in the playoffs relies on a system that tons of people already do not like, to give teams a bigger advantage or disadvantage later in the playoffs. Before you even start to consider natural field conditions in mid-November, it's a dumb idea and it isn't happening any time soon.
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With 16 teams making the playoffs, nobody has any room to complain. What's a better system for playoffs have a committee determine like D1 NCAA FBS??
 
cincifbfan said:
So a 5 minute travel time wouldn't benefit a school is what you are saying.....seriously, that doesn't make it a home game?
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We're saying a 5 minute travel time to a neutral site for the visiting team (which happens maybe 1 out of every 100+ games) is a million times better than 1 team traveling 2 hours to play a game on a grass field that's had 7+ games on it in mid-November. You're so worked up over this one instance of a visiting team having better travel that you're not looking at a single other piece of the equation, most importantly field and facility condition
 
If they were to implement higher seed plays at their home field thru more than the regional quarterfinals, will they still be allowed to play Hell's Bells on third down?
 
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BirdDog10 said:
We're saying a 5 minute travel time to a neutral site for the visiting team (which happens maybe 1 out of every 100+ games) is a million times better than 1 team traveling 2 hours to play a game on a grass field that's had 7+ games on it in mid-November. You're so worked up over this one instance of a visiting team having better travel that you're not looking at a single other piece of the equation, most importantly field and facility condition
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It's much more often than that. Lakota West as a lower seed is traveling only 5 minutes down I75 2 weeks in a row, and Kings was the lower seed last week traveling 5 minutes away. Kings is the higher seed this week, but still only traveling 5 minutes. It's hardly neutral.

Field and facility is part of what makes it home-field advantage. If it's good enough to play on during the regular season, it's good enough to play on in November.

Everyone on here is always saying how soft everyone is these days in one breath, but then talk about how you can't play on grass or mud in the playoffs the very next.
 
cincifbfan said:
Field and facility is part of what makes it home-field advantage. If it's good enough to play on during the regular season, it's good enough to play on in November.
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This is not at all true. Marion Local, for example, has by all standard an excellent small school football facility. If your fantastic idea goes through, they would have just had their NINTH home game on their grass field, 4 of those being in the last 5 weeks. That does not mean in any way that the field was not good enough to play on in the regular season, it means that it's a grass field at a high school so they're going to be limited in how well they can take care of it. That is an awful idea for a playoff game, and I'm positive that players and coaches across the state would agree with you.
 
cincifbfan said:
So a 5 minute travel time wouldn't benefit a school is what you are saying.....seriously, that doesn't make it a home game?

It should go to the higher seed as their reward for having a great season, having an easier schedule, not traveling further than a school seeded below you.
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FYP
Two sides at the least to the "great" coin.

In high school, I'm not sure how much advantage there really is in "home field." It's really an fan and revenue issue. I see some of the same posters (perhaps not you) arguing state finals should be centralized to CBus, to make them "fair" arguing for home fields for higher seeds determined by harbins, not head-to-head games. I can't find any consistency in that.
 
cincifbfan said:
So a 5 minute travel time wouldn't benefit a school is what you are saying.....seriously, that doesn't make it a home game?
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Dead Serious.....

Not the same turf they play/practice on, not the same lights, locker rooms, background, press boxes.....


cincifbfan said:
It should go to the higher seed as their reward for having a great season, not traveling further than a school seeded below you.
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Let me know how many teams opt out before the tournament starts because they have might to take a bus ride that's 30 minutes longer than their opponent.

If it ever does, I'm sure the teams next in line won't be upset about it.

You still haven't given me that location halfway between the two that was left out in the hosting cold......
 
cincifbfan said:
We also talk a lot about how it's all about money, if that were true, only 1 team would travel. That would save significant amounts of money for 2 more rounds of playoffs. If you don't want to travel, do better in the regular season to get a higher seed.
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And the flip side is...... (based on the two games you cited)

2200 less fans for the Winton Woods/Kings game
If Lakota West was the higher seed, 1300 less fans for the Lakota West/Elder game

Yeah, nobody would be complaing about that 😉
 
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cincifbfan said:
What are you talking about?
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You mentioned less expense for only 1 team traveling. (not sure what you base that on for a local trip)

Smaller venues mean less ticket revenue, which would be the case in one of the two games and would occur if the LW/Elder seeding were flipped........ This offsets (by a long shot) that expense you claim will be saved.

In other words..... it's not as simple as you think. You have to look at the entire picture.
 
AllSports12 said:
You still haven't given me that location halfway between the two that was left out in the hosting cold......
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No clue who asked to host. But X would be perfectly between Elder and West, and a much better facility in every way than Princeton.

But most schools don't put in bids for a variety of reasons, one is because they know OHSAA favors certain schools for hosting.

I don't understand the complete hatred involved with a solution to poorly thought out neutral sights. But to each their own I guess.
 
AllSports12 said:
You mentioned less expense for only 1 team traveling. (not sure what you base that on for a local trip)

Smaller venues mean less ticket revenue, which would be the case in one of the two games and would occur if the LW/Elder seeding were flipped........ This offsets (by a long shot) that expense you claim will be saved.

In other words..... it's not as simple as you think. You have to look at the entire picture.
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You seriously are not making any sense.

Point 1..... less expense for 1 team traveling......yes, if the higher seed hosts only 1 team travels. Why would it be more expensive to have 1 team travel vs 2?? I don't pretend to be smarter than I am; but I understand how to add and subtract.

Smaller venues would be just fine because these games are not sold out. Why are you flipping the LW/Elder seeds?

I am looking at the entire picture, it is actually an incredibly simple solution to a problem that people complain about often on Yappi. Every year people complain about how horrible the neutral sites are, hence the creation of this thread.
 
cincifbfan said:
You seriously are not making any sense.

Point 1..... less expense for 1 team traveling......yes, if the higher seed hosts only 1 team travels. Why would it be more expensive to have 1 team travel vs 2?? I don't pretend to be smarter than I am; but I understand how to add and subtract.

Smaller venues would be just fine because these games are not sold out. Why are you flipping the LW/Elder seeds?

I am looking at the entire picture, it is actually an incredibly simple solution to a problem that people complain about often on Yappi. Every year people complain about how horrible the neutral sites are, hence the creation of this thread.
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1) What great travel expenses are incurred by playing a game 16 miles away ?

2) you don’t think that the Elder faithful would scream that a game for the Regional Championship is being played at a 3800 seat stadium when there are venues that carry in excess of 5000 ?

if you think no, you haven’t been paying attention
 
That’s funny you ask. Over in Kentucky most think it’s time to start neutral sites. I personally have have seen 5+ hours for a 1st round game. So to answer the question NO. I’m big fan of neutral sites. It brings a different type of energy.
 
CoachTsBlackJeep said:
That’s funny you ask. Over in Kentucky most think it’s time to start neutral sites. I personally have have seen 5+ hours for a 1st round game. So to answer the question NO. I’m big fan of neutral sites. It brings a different type of energy.
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Ive been on those bus rides. It's definitely different and i enjoyed it personally.
 
AllSports12 said:
1) What great travel expenses are incurred by playing a game 16 miles away ?

2) you don’t think that the Elder faithful would scream that a game for the Regional Championship is being played at a 3800 seat stadium when there are venues that carry in excess of 5000 ?

if you think no, you haven’t been paying attention
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1. You know it costs money to bus players, band, and whatnot right?

2. What regional championship are we talking about with Elder?
 
AllSports12 said:
1) What great travel expenses are incurred by playing a game 16 miles away ?

2) you don’t think that the Elder faithful would scream that a game for the Regional Championship is being played at a 3800 seat stadium when there are venues that carry in excess of 5000 ?

if you think no, you haven’t been paying attention
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The grass is always greener.

Over in PA, the WPIAL requires the early rounds to be hosted by the higher seed, but the stadium must have turf. Without turf, the game gets moved to a reasonable WPIAL member nearby. Greensburg Central Catholic moved to Hempfield, Aliquippa moved to Ambridge, etc. But, also the WPIAL has a lot more authority to make those moves and the schools can't really object to giving up their stadium for a neutral site game. They've already agreed by being members to participate and for what in return.
 
To all the people that are saying that home teams should host up through the second or third last round, or that grass fields are viable in November, I offer this. Does anyone remember the 1996, 2002, or 2009 seasons? In those years, it rained or snowed just about every Friday night. Can you imagine what grass fields would have looked like in November those years? They would have been unplayable. In 2018, many teams hosting in the first round moved their games to nearby turf sites because of weather concerns. It's unfortunate, and the site selection could be better, but Ohio's weather necessitates turf in the playoffs.
 
Some people are arguing that allowing a team to play at the state championship site in a prior playoff game may give them an advantage (which may be a reason why Lake vs. Massillon isn't at Benson), so I decided to do some research.

Since the playoffs started in 1972, there have been 24 instances in which a team played in a state championship game at a venue in which they played a prior playoff game, but it has not happened since 2011. In those games, those teams are 11-13. Specifics are below:

D1:
1973 Warren Western Reserve (Rubber Bowl, lost)
1975 St. Edward (Rubber Bowl, lost)
1976 Gahanna Lincoln (Rubber Bowl, lost)
1977 Canton McKinley (Rubber Bowl, lost)
1978 Princeton (Welcome Stadium, won)
1979 Padua (Rubber Bowl, lost)
1980 Moeller (Welcome Stadium, won)
1981 Canton McKinley (Rubber Bowl, won)
1990 Warren Harding (Rubber Bowl, won)
1998 Canton McKinley (Massillon, won; also won at Massillon in the regular season)
2002 Warren Harding (Fawcett, lost; also beat McKinley at Fawcett in the regular season)
2003 St. Edward (Fawcett, lost)
2004 Canton McKinley (Fawcett, lost)

D2:
1972 St. Vincent-St. Mary (Massillon, won)
1973 Benedictine (Massillon, won)
1978 Badin (Welcome Stadium, lost)
1981 Benedictine (Rubber Bowl, won)
1982 Mooney (Rubber Bowl, won)
1987 Steubenville (Ohio Stadium, lost)
2005 Canfield (Massillon, lost)

D3: 2011 Mooney (Fawcett, won)

D4
1987 Columbus Academy (Ohio Stadium, won)
2008 Steubenville (Fawcett, lost)

D5: 1987 Newark Catholic (Ohio Stadium, lost)
 
Sykotyk said:
The grass is always greener.

Over in PA, the WPIAL requires the early rounds to be hosted by the higher seed, but the stadium must have turf. Without turf, the game gets moved to a reasonable WPIAL member nearby. Greensburg Central Catholic moved to Hempfield, Aliquippa moved to Ambridge, etc. But, also the WPIAL has a lot more authority to make those moves and the schools can't really object to giving up their stadium for a neutral site game. They've already agreed by being members to participate and for what in return.
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You're comparing a conference to a state? If you're going to use the "grass is always greener" argument, then shouldn't your argument be supporting the neutral ground? That IS our grass.
 
hammer89 said:
The schools did band together. They did so and created this organization called the OHSAA. Wild!
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People act like OHSAA is some evil, distant corporation when it’s made up of member schools. LOL

perhaps it is valid that host schools should be more incentivized, but the high schools are the OHSAA.
 
eastisbest said:
You're comparing a conference to a state? If you're going to use the "grass is always greener" argument, then shouldn't your argument be supporting the neutral ground? That IS our grass.
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WPIAL has 127 teams and is a quarter of the entire PIAA's members.
 
Just to throw some fuel on this stupid fire....lets just suppose....unlikely, sure, but just consider:

A team is 3-5 and plays their last two regular season games on the road. Finishes as the #15 seed. Nobody expected them to make the playoffs...and their field hasn't been touched in 3 weeks.

First round......goes on the road.....defeats the #15 seed. They weren't expected to win....their home field has now been sitting for 4 weeks. No chance of winning another one right....no need to work on the field. Guess what, the 16 seed beat #1

Second round.....last minute touchdown to win by a point against the #7 seed. Oh, and their home field got 4" of rain this week, so they couldn't mow it. Dang #16 beat the 8 seed. It's getting crazy.

Third round....another stunner...pick 6 to win it over the 3......oh and their home field is now covered with 3" of snow and the grass is 6" tall. #16 did it again....knocked off #4 .

The regional final is now at the home field of #15 next week.....whose field hasn't been able to be touched in 7 weeks...oh and it just snowed another 3" today. This is gonna be fun.
 
tcgobucks said:
Just to throw some fuel on this stupid fire....lets just suppose....unlikely, sure, but just consider:

A team is 3-5 and plays their last two regular season games on the road. Finishes as the #15 seed. Nobody expected them to make the playoffs...and their field hasn't been touched in 3 weeks.

First round......goes on the road.....defeats the #15 seed. They weren't expected to win....their home field has now been sitting for 4 weeks. No chance of winning another one right....no need to work on the field. Guess what, the 16 seed beat #1

Second round.....last minute touchdown to win by a point against the #7 seed. Oh, and their home field got 4" of rain this week, so they couldn't mow it. Dang #16 beat the 8 seed. It's getting crazy.

Third round....another stunner...pick 6 to win it over the 3......oh and their home field is now covered with 3" of snow and the grass is 6" tall. #16 did it again....knocked off #4 .

The regional final is now at the home field of #15 next week.....whose field hasn't been able to be touched in 7 weeks...oh and it just snowed another 3" today. This is gonna be fun.
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The game would be moved
 
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