Inter Valley Athletic Conference

Im not sure why the league would want to get rid of Hiland and Ridgewood. They both seem to be pretty successful and seem to fit perfectly number wise. I do understand how the crossovers affect the smaller schools, but I think that will be a problem down the road when Garaway and Ridgewood go back to d6 and have to play d4 IV and claymont and d5 sandy valley. two divisions is tough to make up, as malvern strasburg and tcc are saying, and I agree!
 

bootleg

Active member
I think you may have misunderstood my position. The shake up was only about one sport and that was playing crossovers in football.
8 schools could have simply withdrew and made a new league.
That would have left 5 football but 6 schools in total.
8 schools is the ideal number for a league per the history of scholastic athletic competition.
I would have hated to see it happen.
what is a solution? get the split league to 16. Hiland gets football, CV gets in, and you are quickly to 14 football schools which would mean 1 crossover - get two more schools and you have your 16, 8-8 and no crossovers and no one is looking for a weeks 4 or 5 anymore.

I don't foresee the moving up or down a division by schools as do others. The trend is all schools are losing enrollment therefore there would be no leap frogging- it may happen but I doubt it. If Hiland refuses then why have them? I would hate to see schools left out in the cold from a split. However I feel I have voiced a viable solution.
 

mingua

Member
I think the "fair" thing to do would be do away with all crossovers. Make the division 4 schools who have gotten to beat up on division 6 and 7 schools during weeks 4 and 5 play fellow d-4 schools for the next four or five years. See how they like it. I know that Reno is always looking for games. Call him up, I'm sure he would even come to IV now that they have turf. D-4 versus D-4 (how it should be).
 
I agree with you bootleg, and would like to see something done with the crossovers. I just think a lot of people would think the same thing with hiland girls basketball, strasburg softball, and east canton track, which runs roughshed over the league. Claymont wrestling has to be pretty good too. It seems people only live in the now, things change and everyone goes hot and cold, its a great league.
 

BelowTheLine

Active member
This conversation is the exact opposite of what it should be. The North schools should be wanting the crossovers The South schools should be wanting to eliminate the crossovers.
 

3Counties1Town

New member
Scheduling Purposes

With 7 teams being involved that means you will need 7 weeks to get 6 games in because each IVC North member will need an open week. That open week could be week 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9 or 10. So if you drew the week 3 or 4 bye it's really not a big deal. When you get to weeks 6 thru 10, it will be much harder for teams to find games. It is my understanding that several teams want to wait until an even amount of teams are in the league.


Week 1 - Non League
Week 2 - Non League
Week 3 - IVC North or Open
Week 4 - IVC North or Open
Week 5 - IVC Cross Divisional Week
Week 6 - IVC North or Open
Week 7 - IVC North or Open
Week 8 - IVC North or Open
Week 9 - IVC North or Open
Week 10 - IVC North or Open
 

bootleg

Active member
they make the rule of crossovers, ok
make the rule hiland gets football and voila add cv there is 14
this is really simple math then search for next two
 

BelowTheLine

Active member
Well it's simple. Do you want your Hornets to be able to compete deep into the playoffs and play for state championships or not? If the answer is yes, then as a North team you should want crossover games.

In DVII you did not have to be 10-0, 9-1 or even 8-2 to make the 8-team playoffs. As a matter of fact, 5-5 teams make it almost every year and even a 4-6 team made it a few years ago. So a loss or two in week 4 & 5 wasn't going to damage your chances at a playoff spot in the 8-team playoff system and you have even more wiggle room now that it will be a 12-team playoff. If you go back and look, you will see years where four 4-6 teams would've made the DVII playoffs in this region if there were 12 playoff teams.

Now, if you go undefeated in league play (like Malvern did last year) and win the North you are going to be in the playoffs. The question then becomes are you prepared to compete in the playoffs? The answer last year was painfully no.

But let's not stop there. Let's look at what it takes to compete at the state level. To win a state championship last year in DVI or DVII you were going to have beat quarterbacks like Mitchell Hays (New Bremen), Myles Blasingame (Coldwater) or Beau Brungard (New Middletown Springfield). Well, which quarterback in the IVC North would've prepared you for any of those guys?

That's why crossovers should be so valuable for the IVC North. Because Malvern could've played against Gabe Tingle, Garrett Newsome or Cam Blair. Those crossovers gave you a chance to play against teams that would be similar to high level DVII & DVI schools. Would you probably lose? Sure. Do you think DVII Marion Local cared when they lost to Division III Bishop Watterson a few years ago and then went on to win state? Do you think DVII Minster cared when they lost four games in a row to higher division league opponents and then went on to win the state title in 2017?

The point is if you want to have high goals you have to play high level competition and the crossovers could provide that for North schools. You actually have an advantage (the chance to play DIV or DV schools) that very few DVII schools in the state have. Why wouldn't you want to use it your advantage?

I'd say the exact opposite for the South. If Ridgewood or Garaway wants to win a state title, playing a North team in weeks 4 & 5 isn't going to prepare them to play Ironton or Kirtland. So the South schools should be fighting to eliminate the crossovers IMO.

I would agree that the way crossovers are done isn't the best. I'd set it up so the top two programs in the South play the top two programs in the North every year, the middle two programs in the South play the middle two in the North each other and the bottom two in the South play the bottom two in the North each year,

You make week 4 a home game for all North teams and week 5 a home game for all South teams so everyone is on track to get five home games.

You have enough data to classify the teams and you update every few years. It's one of the advantages the MAC has. They schedule so all of the top teams play each other (for competition) and so that all of the bottom teams play each other (for program building) If you look it at right now, your three "pods" would be something like this

Ridgewood & Garaway vs. Malvern & Buckeye Trail
Indian Valley & Sandy Valley vs. East Canton & TCC
Tusky Valley & Claymont vs. Strasburg & Newcomerstown

I'll just finish by asking you a simple question. Would you trade losses to Ridgewood and Garaway in weeks 4 & 5 for wins in the playoffs in weeks 11, 12, 13, etc?
 

3Counties1Town

New member
That wasn't a good analogy because I do not think most IVC teams are playing for a state title. Last year, was the first year John Slusser ever expected to win a state title. He stated that in his pre-season interview. I do not believe any IVC North team has a state championship as a realistic goal. Sure it would be nice, but isn't realistic.
 

BelowTheLine

Active member
That wasn't a good analogy because I do not think most IVC teams are playing for a state title. Last year, was the first year John Slusser ever expected to win a state title. He stated that in his pre-season interview. I do not believe any IVC North team has a state championship as a realistic goal. Sure it would be nice, but isn't realistic.
The IVC has won state titles in boys' basketball, girls' basketball, cross country, softball, baseball, golf & track. the league has been in the state finals multiple times in volleyball. There are ZERO legitimate reasons why the IVC can not win a state title in football. ZERO.
 

3Counties1Town

New member
I coached for many years and while I do appreciate the optimization as it is what is needed to be a successful coach, I am also a realistic individual since I stopped coaching. How about we start with getting multiple regional championships before we discuss state titles. There is a reason why southeastern, Ohio has not won state titles and it's not coaching. I would first look at the socioeconomic background of each area. I believe that plays a key role into the success of programs.
 

BelowTheLine

Active member
I coached for many years and while I do appreciate the optimization as it is what is needed to be a successful coach, I am also a realistic individual since I stopped coaching. How about we start with getting multiple regional championships before we discuss state titles. There is a reason why southeastern, Ohio has not won state titles and it's not coaching. I would first look at the socioeconomic background of each area. I believe that plays a key role into the success of programs.
Well I don't have time to respond to the economic part this morning but even if your goal is just a regional title you still benefit from playing a tougher schedule which is why IVC North teams should want crossovers. The crossovers only help the North teams playoff chances.

Playing crossovers doesn't hurt North teams in any way. They still have a league title to win. They still can make the playoffs even if they lost in both weeks 4 & 5.
 

wack7

Active member
BTL although I'd love the Hornets to play for a state championship but the way our enrollment is going that is only a pipe dream we dressed 23 players last year we can compete with teams of the same size in 08 Malvern was in the state semi the difference we dressed over 50 and maybe the South should be begging Dover and New Philly to play them it's no different getting running clocked twice a year helps nothing so yes the way things are I'm happy with our IVC North championship and play-off win
 

BelowTheLine

Active member
BTL although I'd love the Hornets to play for a state championship but the way our enrollment is going that is only a pipe dream we dressed 23 players last year we can compete with teams of the same size in 08 Malvern was in the state semi the difference we dressed over 50 and maybe the South should be begging Dover and New Philly to play them it's no different getting running clocked twice a year helps nothing so yes the way things are I'm happy with our IVC North championship and play-off win
OHSAA 2020 enrollment numbers

Malvern - 86
Division VII State Champion New Bremen - 83

You have a higher enrollment than the state champion. Your enrollment is not a reason you can't compete at a high level.

And yes, if you read my original post I said that South schools should want to eliminate cross overs and play tough teams. Playing good teams makes you better.
 

BelowTheLine

Active member
BTL although I'd love the Hornets to play for a state championship but the way our enrollment is going that is only a pipe dream we dressed 23 players last year we can compete with teams of the same size in 08 Malvern was in the state semi the difference we dressed over 50 and maybe the South should be begging Dover and New Philly to play them it's no different getting running clocked twice a year helps nothing so yes the way things are I'm happy with our IVC North championship and play-off win
And one more thing, playing a good opponent and getting beat soundly doesn't hurt you in any way. Go back and look at the schedules of the DVII state champions. You'll see losses like 24-7, 31-7, 30-7, 28-0. Playing better teams in higher divisions didn't hurt them did it?
 

BelowTheLine

Active member
I coached for many years and while I do appreciate the optimization as it is what is needed to be a successful coach, I am also a realistic individual since I stopped coaching. How about we start with getting multiple regional championships before we discuss state titles. There is a reason why southeastern, Ohio has not won state titles and it's not coaching. I would first look at the socioeconomic background of each area. I believe that plays a key role into the success of programs.
Nobody is going to argue that socioeconomic and family stability isn't an advantage. However, saying you can't win because you don't have high socioeconomic standing just isn't true. Sure it might be harder but it can (and has multiple times) been done.

Cleveland.com published a list of average income for every school district in Ohio. Here is how the IVC schools rated in that list out of 612 schools.

#174 - Tusky Valley
#225 - Strasburg
#270 - Buckeye Trail
#277 - Malvern
#334 - East Canton
#373 - Conotton Valley
#375 - Hiland
#376 - Garaway
#420 - Sandy Valley
#421 - Indian Valley
#436 - Ridgewood
#533 - Claymont
#551 - Newcomerstown


So a few things stand out about the list. 9 of the 13 schools on the list (no TCC) find themselves in the bottom half of the list and we five of the schools in the bottom 1/3rd of the list. There are no IVC schools in the top 25% of the list. So the economic disadvantage that you talk about is very real.

However, it's interesting to note that there is very little correlation to IVC success and socioeconomics. Sure, Claymont and Newcomerstown are at the bottom of this list but Tusky Valley and Strasburg are at the top. All four of those programs have similar histories of struggling in the new IVC.

Which program has been the most successful in the new IVC? Ridgewood right? Well they are near the bottom of the list. Garaway is probably the next team and they are in the bottom half of the list. Sandy Valley as well.

So even within the IVC there is very little (if any) correlation between family income and on the field success.

Let's take a look at it on the state level. The list below is the same list as above but I've added (in bold) schools that have played for state titles in DV-DVII since 2010.

#39 - Kirtland
#60 - Minster
#90 - Johnstown-Monroe (Runner Up)
#99 - Anna
#104 - New Bremen
#106 - Marion Local
#120 - Cuyahoga Heights (Runner Up)
#140 - Eastwood (Runner Up)
#149 - Coldwater

#174 - Tusky Valley
#190 - Fort Recovery
#225 - Strasburg
#270 - Buckeye Trail
#272 - Lucas (Runner Up)
#276 - New Middletown Springfield (Runner Up)

#277 - Malvern
#284 - McComb
#313 - Wheelersburg

#334 - East Canton
#352 - Mogadore (Runner Up)
#372 - Orrville

#373 - Conotton Valley
#375 - Hiland
#376 - Garaway
#378 - Wayne Trace (Runner Up)
#397 - Buckeye Central (Runner Up)

#420 - Sandy Valley
#421 - Indian Valley
#436 - Ridgewood
#533 - Claymont
#551 - Newcomerstown
#555 - Glouster Trimble (Runner Up)
#558 - Ironton (Runner Up)


Obviously the MAC schools dominate the top of this list and economics and stable family life is an advantage for them. Nobody would argue that it doesn't help. But look at the list. You have teams similar to or below many IVC teams that have made it to the state finals since 2010 and some of them multiple times.

It can be done. There is no reason IVC schools can't win regional titles and compete at the state level.
 

Damage450

Active member
BTL although I'd love the Hornets to play for a state championship but the way our enrollment is going that is only a pipe dream we dressed 23 players last year we can compete with teams of the same size in 08 Malvern was in the state semi the difference we dressed over 50 and maybe the South should be begging Dover and New Philly to play them it's no different getting running clocked twice a year helps nothing so yes the way things are I'm happy with our IVC North championship and play-off win
If Malvern's roster was 50 in 2008 and 23 in 2021 that's a 54% decrease. Unless Malvern's enrollment was 190 boys in 2008 then the decrease in the number of football players is much greater than the decrease in enrollment.
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
If Malvern's roster was 50 in 2008 and 23 in 2021 that's a 54% decrease. Unless Malvern's enrollment was 190 boys in 2008 then the decrease in the number of football players is much greater than the decrease in enrollment.
Being an electronic packrat has its perks. Malvern's headcounts for grades 9-11 taken in October of each year listed:
2008: 88 boys, 85 girls
2010: 98 boys, 85 girls
2012: 73 boys, 75 girls
2014: 60 boys, 77 girls
2016: 76 boys, 76 girls
2018: 86 boys, 68 girls
 

bootleg

Active member
Good discussion
yet I can't stop thinking - all this is just hot air if the league just adds a couple more??? With one ready to enter - just have to find 3
 
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