Increase in the share of Americans saying colleges have a negative effect on the US is driven by Republicans changing views. #FoxNewsEffect

[eastisbest]

In a non-fact base world it is better to have an uneducated base of voters.

View attachment 4555

Happy, it is recognized that poorer whites distrust academia in higher numbers than other demographics. All your stats are saying is that the Democratic party also lost their distrust and they shifted parties. You can thank the last President for that. It was that what you're calling, "uneducated base of voters" that put Obama in office.

 

[toledomansfield]

democrats, and the media, are trying to equate non-college-educated as dumb. they are doing this by hammering home the point that trumps supporters are non college educated. it is transparent. it is foolish. most people recognize it for what it is. democrats should get a handle on their messaging, it isn't working.

 

[ProV1]

The criticism of college education is totally misplaced. The problem with college is not the education it provides but the ridiculous escalation in costs that make it impossible for many and a debt machine for much of the rest. The fact that careers don’t match majors is an individual choice based on what you decide to major in and what career you choose. The fact remains that college grads earn more over their lifetime than those that don’t. Sure... college may not be for everybody but that does not mean it is not generally positive for a population. What is not measured is the non academic benefit of college. It reinforces self discipline to succeed and exposes people to environments and others that have differing backgrounds and views than those that stay in the often closed communities they come from. Military is much the same. People often end up being much more independent thinkers and fact finders than those that stay in their cozy and closed environments.

 

[cabezadecaballo]

That wasn't protest. That was honest hitting.



Cab, saying it doesn't make it reality.



Your just changed your definition of "under-employed" AND supported the argument I made that those grads are likely not included in the chart statistics, leaving the charts lacking reality that perhaps it's not all that bad. People leave school or do not go into their major for many reasons BY CHOICE. The insinuation was they're not in major because?

If their definition of (and if you're changing yours to) "under-employed" means those making less than others in the same major then hello, we're looking at around 50% for EVERY major, depending upon skew.

AND none of it seems relevent to the thread. MY point was, Moe's response didn't make sense to the discussion but I wanted to see the charts to be sure and because I thought they'd have interesting info. They do, but they make sense in other settings, not this one.

YOU brought up college educated UAW line workers, social workers, etc, muddying the water in your obtuse pivot off of Moe’s post. It read to me as if you were trying to insinuate that those you knew in the Jeep plant would or could be counted as underemployed and yet happily persist in that circumstance in Moe’s graphs.

You don’t think in English, do you ?

 

[toledomansfield]

"the fact remains that those who go to college make more over their lifetime that those that don't..." is not actually a fact

 

[eastisbest]

YOU brought up college educated UAW line workers, social workers, etc, muddying the water in your obtuse pivot off of Moe’s post. It read to me as if you were trying to insinuate that those you knew in the Jeep plant would or could be counted as underemployed and yet happily persist in that circumstance in Moe’s graphs.

You don’t think in English, do you ?

You don't read in English, do you ? Only YOU would consider addressing the actual thread topic as "muddying waters."

My post was on point of the thread title. Moe's wasn't as I've stated.

The stat never said a thing about salary. Neither did Moe. Neither did I. I simply related reasons people would not be employed in their major, following the logic set up by YOUR post, accepting yours for point of conversation. I think another easily acceptable one would be, for example, someone majors in education (a "higher" calling ) and takes a factory job, regardless the factory job pays more.

I'll grant you that it is reasonable difficulty following the train of thought since the conversation is not consecutive with the 50 others we are randomly opining.

Can we stop now?

 

[cabezadecaballo]

You don't read in English, do you ? Only YOU would consider addressing the actual thread topic as "muddying waters."

My post was on point of the thread title. Moe's wasn't as I've stated.

The stat never said a thing about salary. Neither did Moe. Neither did I. I simply related reasons people would not be employed in their major, following the logic set up by YOUR post, accepting yours for point of conversation. I think another easily acceptable one would be, for example, someone majors in education (a "higher" calling ) and takes a factory job, regardless the factory job pays more.

I'll grant you that it is reasonable difficulty following the train of thought since the conversation is not consecutive with the 50 others we are randomly opining.

Can we stop now?

YOU questioned the veracity/accuracy of a post YOU requested. Then YOU deflected to college educated assembly line workers happily placing widget after widget, maybe meeting future spouses. You’re an idiot to demand staying on thread focus.

 

[cabezadecaballo]

"the fact remains that those who go to college make more over their lifetime that those that don't..." is not actually a fact

Average, sure.

 

[toledomansfield]

most skilled tradesman make more than most college grads in lifetime earnings

 

[Yorktown]

The criticism of college education is totally misplaced. The problem with college is not the education it provides but the ridiculous escalation in costs that make it impossible for many and a debt machine for much of the rest.

Cost of College Statistics – Average Costs & University-Specific Costs

A look at the average cost of college by school type and the specific costs of over 1,700 colleges & universities throughout the United States.

lendedu.com

You can get a 4 year degree if you work only part time and still be debt free when you graduate.

In State 4 year average is about 25K — 7250 a year.

But you see most want “the college experience” so they throw into the loan All living expenses. Ive know people who took college loan money to buy a CAR!

Stupid!

 

[Happygoluckky]

most skilled tradesman make more than most college grads in lifetime earnings

Skilled tradesman can make very decent money especially if they own their own company.

Plumber Salary in Cincinnati, Ohio

How much does a Plumber make in Cincinnati, OH? The average Plumber salary in Cincinnati, OH is $55,336 as of October 30, 2019, but the range typically falls between $48,128 and $63,305. Salary ranges can vary widely depending on many important factors, including education, certifications, additional skills, the number of years you have spent in your profession.

Very similar to entry level job for a college grad.

 

[ProV1]

most skilled tradesman make more than most college grads in lifetime earnings
[/QUOTE

That statement means nothing. I’m sure that many skilled tradesman make more money than many college grads. That is irrelevant. Any statement that says ”most” without a single underlying fact is useless. When you consider the entire working adult population, there is overwhelming evidence that college degree earners make more money over their lifetime (example study in this thread). Again, college is not for everybody but education is not the problem in this country. Cost of education is. Generally speaking, the US is undereducated relative to the rest of the advanced world especially in math, science, and computer science. As such, there is a glut of open positions in these fields that are being filled by people from other countries coming on work VISAs.

 

[ProV1]

Cost of College Statistics – Average Costs & University-Specific Costs

A look at the average cost of college by school type and the specific costs of over 1,700 colleges & universities throughout the United States.

lendedu.com

You can get a 4 year degree if you work only part time and still be debt free when you graduate.

In State 4 year average is about 25K — 7250 a year.

But you see most want “the college experience” so they throw into the loan All living expenses. Ive know people who took college loan money to buy a CAR!

Stupid!

Wasting money and unnecessarily borrowing money is always stupid whether college is the motive or not. I agree that college educations don’t need to cost 200K but to many, 7-10K annual tuition bills plus living expenses (no matter where you live) is unattainable. I think the broader point is that a high school education is “generally“ inadequate for folks as a basis for a career and college and advanced training needs to be more easily accessible.

 

[Happygoluckky]

Skilled tradesman can make very decent money especially if they own their own company.

Plumber Salary in Cincinnati, Ohio

How much does a Plumber make in Cincinnati, OH? The average Plumber salary in Cincinnati, OH is $55,336 as of October 30, 2019, but the range typically falls between $48,128 and $63,305. Salary ranges can vary widely depending on many important factors, including education, certifications, additional skills, the number of years you have spent in your profession.

Very similar to entry level job for a college grad.

Much more upward mobility in a field such as accounting. Starting salary for Bachelors $56K with salary range up to $120K.

 

[SWMCinci]

It's all relative, college degrees with poor job prospects offers little to no advantage to someone that graduates HS. Someone graduating with a degree in the Humanities spent $100K or more on a degree with limited job prospects and even if they get a job in their degree field it will take 20 years to generate a return on the investment in their education. We graduate more people in more degree fields than are needed in the business world. That's part of the argument against college for everyone, if everyone has a college degree it decreases the value for everyone.

Now if you have the means to pay for your education in Women's Studies, by all means pursue it. If you are pursuing a degree for your personal satisfaction and not as a entry-point to a career then it's your business. But if the argument for you to have access to Taxpayer funds is that you will earn more over your lifetime and provide an ROI for Taxpayers, then you ought to be limited to those degrees that are in demand and actually demonstrate an ability to provide an ROI for the "investment".

The best paying college graduate jobs generally are for people with STEM degrees, of which most people in college aren't taking. There are a lot of Social Science and MBA graduates working at Starbucks alongside people that attended no college. You don't find that happening to many engineers, chemists, or mathematicians. For other degrees, most people would be better served ignoring college and moving into an apprenticeship or vocational training for a skilled trade.

 

[SWMCinci]

The criticism of college education is totally misplaced. The problem with college is not the education it provides but the ridiculous escalation in costs that make it impossible for many and a debt machine for much of the rest. …...

College costs accelerated beyond inflation as the federal government stopped in to try to democratize college for the masses. With the inception of Pell Grants and federally subsidized and guaranteed student loans it allowed colleges to increase costs without restrictions. More and more students with ever larger grants and loans were going to college and 66% of them are not advancing to completing a degree program (before the government intervened it was about 25%).

 

[ProV1]

It's all relative, college degrees with poor job prospects offers little to no advantage to someone that graduates HS. Someone graduating with a degree in the Humanities spent $100K or more on a degree with limited job prospects and even if they get a job in their degree field it will take 20 years to generate a return on the investment in their education. We graduate more people in more degree fields than are needed in the business world. That's part of the argument against college for everyone, if everyone has a college degree it decreases the value for everyone.

Now if you have the means to pay for your education in Women's Studies, by all means pursue it. If you are pursuing a degree for your personal satisfaction and not as a entry-point to a career then it's your business. But if the argument for you to have access to Taxpayer funds is that you will earn more over your lifetime and provide an ROI for Taxpayers, then you ought to be limited to those degrees that are in demand and actually demonstrate an ability to provide an ROI for the "investment".

The best paying college graduate jobs generally are for people with STEM degrees, of which most people in college aren't taking. There are a lot of Social Science and MBA graduates working at Starbucks alongside people that attended no college. You don't find that happening to many engineers, chemists, or mathematicians. For other degrees, most people would be better served ignoring college and moving into an apprenticeship or vocational training for a skilled trade.

100% true. Some people are not driven by career and money which is fine. Their decision to spend a boatload and work at Starbucks is not the problem...it is their own decision. The problems are around cost and the lack of kids pursuing STEM degrees which means many of the best jobs are being filled by those coming to the US under work VISA’s.

 

[Happygoluckky]

Just go on to a job board like LINKEDIN. To apply for many jobs you need to meet basic requirements;

A HS/GED - Base level (career trajectory limited)
Bachelor - Entry level jobs if have two years of experience even better you get in the door and can move up (to a point)
MBA - enter into a higher level pact
MBA from a top tier school - you skip entry level jobs and are in an executive track.

Obviously a BS in 12th Century Asian literature is little help but it would position you for an entry level job if you are willing to learn and once in the door no one will care in the future what your major was....it is illogical. The smart kids get some experience (COOP) or internship to go along with degree. Smarter kids have family connections. Smartest kids were born into a family business that recognizes their brilliance or donates money to get them into a top tier BSchool - (Don Jr, Hunter, etc.)

 

[SWMCinci]

Just go on to a job board like LINKEDIN. To apply for many jobs you need to meet basic requirements;

A HS/GED - Base level (career trajectory limited)
Bachelor - Entry level jobs if have two years of experience even better you get in the door and can move up (to a point)
MBA - enter into a higher level pact
MBA from a top tier school - you skip entry level jobs and are in an executive track.

Obviously a BS in 12th Century Asian literature is little help but it would position you for an entry level job if you are willing to learn and once in the door no one will care in the future what your major was....it is illogical. The smart kids get some experience (COOP) or internship to go along with degree. Smarter kids have family connections. Smartest kids were born into a family business that recognizes their brilliance or donates money to get them into a top tier BSchool - (Don Jr, Hunter, etc.)

LinkedIn is really geared for professionals (primarily college-educated, experienced, business people) you won't find many HS graduate positions listed on LinkedIn. While there are some recent graduate positions, the vast majority of successful job-seekers within LinkedIn are seasoned professionals that get approached by headhunters and internal recruiters based on their experience and references, not on their educational postings.

 

[Happygoluckky]

LinkedIn is really geared for professionals (primarily college-educated, experienced, business people) you won't find many HS graduate positions listed on LinkedIn. While there are some recent graduate positions, the vast majority of successful job-seekers within LinkedIn are seasoned professionals that get approached by headhunters and internal recruiters based on their experience and references, not on their educational postings.

OK try Indeed, Monster, Glassdoor or Zip Recruiter. (BTW - the interns at my company and undergrad students are using LinkedIn very well to market selves and their brands.)

 

[SWMCinci]

OK try Indeed, Monster, Glassdoor or Zip Recruiter. (BTW - the interns at my company and undergrad students are using LinkedIn very well to market selves and their brands.)

I encourage everyone to, but the fact is that most entry-level and non-professional positions are not filled via LinkedIn.

 

[winbypin]

Don't let those pesky facts get in the way of how you feel, I guess. ?‍

I have no doubt that virtually any tradesman makes way more bank than some art history graduate working at a coffee shop, but the overall picture makes it pretty clear that people generally make overwhelmingly more with a college degree than they do without one.

Measuring the value of education : Career Outlook: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

Is school worth the work? Find out what the data say.

www.bls.gov

About the same as the art history major turned barista?

 

[winbypin]

So, we can't even mention information that Mr. Polar Bears has voluntarily provided to the forum any longer? What a joke.

 

[MoeDude]

thanks. 34.8% of employers of college degreed people require only the college degree, not the major. That's a significant reason to go to college and does not speak to debt. The blurb doesn't describe what is meant by "underemployment" but also does not speak to debt. It's not unusual for graduates to find it's not their major they want to make a life at, regardless it is of interest. Also, doesn't go to existence of debt.

If you need every detail the article with the charts states the following:

There are two different things going on in this chart. First, a significant number of college grads appear to be underemployed: In 2010, only 62 percent of U.S. college graduates had a job that required a college degree. ...

So by "underemployed" they are stating that 38% of people with a degree are working jobs that didn't even require a degree in the first place. That is a lot of tuition money spent for something that is not even being used.

I would suspect, based ONLY on personal observation that it is a very small percentage of students who major in the trades in school, actually go into that trade.

I'll give you credit the article states this as well and doesn't feel it is a major issue. But again people are spending a h3!! of a lot of money just to prove they can learn when real job training would be more productive.

Those are employed people. Regardless it's their "major," college is a life experience many consider positive. Knew quite a few at the factory and in the trades, didn't need that college degree but it's paid and they wouldn't have swapped the experience for anything. Heck, most of them met their spouse there.

You can gain "life experiences" in many different ways without spending thousands of dollars. Not everyone is CEO material or even shift foreman material and that's alright, but we have reached a point where we say you must go to college whether it is really going to help you or not. Sure an education may open some doors at certain points in "life: but you can survive without one. You read stories all the time about successful people who either dropped out of college or didn't go at all but found a business niche that has paid off.

It's interesting but doesn't really support any contention about student debt, about college hurting ability to get a job vs. life choice. Any breakdown by major? school? That might be more informative.

In today's world it's rare to see one graduate from a four year college without large sums of student debt. That's a lot of financial responsibility to take on if when you graduate you aren't even sure how that degree is going to help you lor how you're going to pay it off. I've worked with graduates of some of the highly regarded universities but these people don't know how to interact with different types of people but are so arrogant because of the name of the university behind their degree that they fall flat on their face in the work world because of their narrow minded viewpoints.

I won't argue that there are many cases where having the degree helps get a job but realistically the way we are funding college is not working especially when the degree you end up with most likely will have nothing to do with what ends up being your career. The whole point of the charts is that college education is just as you say a "life experience" which is a pretty expensive way of experiencing life if it's not really directly leading to how you will support yourself. I still think there should be more trade school type programs teaching specific types of skills versus just going off to college and have your life experiences for 10s of thousands of dollars.

The other thing is the implications of the title of this thread and what Happygoluckky stated right away, the insinuation that the Republican Party voting base is uneducated. Educated in what, that Liberal propaganda being spread over the past few decades by Liberal Professors? I've met some pretty smart people who never put a foot in a college classroom. It's like I said earlier, it's just more Liberal BS passing judgement on someone who doesn't believe in the same things they believe in.