Hudson is still a team to reckon with!

Lancermania

Lancers lead the way!
Hudson won the Glen Oak meet with 33 points. Check out what these guys ran:

1. Titan Casey, 1st, 16:13.77
2. Jack Root, 2nd, 16:14.49
3. Andrew Goldslager, 5th, 16:20.35
4. Ethan Smith, 12th, 16:53.85
5. Gabe Shale 13th, 16:54.45,
6. Luke Good 16th, 16:55.09
 
NDCL may be ready to give Woodridge a run for their money in the NE:
15:52 Sr
16:00 Sr
16:23 Jr
17:02 Sr
17:18 Sr
17:23 Soph
17:24 Soph
 
Berkshire Coach said he measured it 3-4 times and was legit. 2 other coaches told me they ran it after meet and had 3.09 and 3.08.
 

SLS

Member
Definitely not a legit course. Last year the course was recorded on Milesplit as being 3 miles. Based on the athlete profiles, looking at their track times, and comparing last year's CC times, I believe this course is less than 3 miles.
How short was the course at Berkshire?
 
Last year was short because in the boys race the 4 wheeler led them the wrong way and they missed a small loop of around 286 meters or .1.
 
This year was a new course at the Fairgrounds not Kent Geauga. At least a mile of it was on a horse track and outside the track they could run on dirt drives that ran along the grass. So much or it could be considered more like a road race rather than a race run on grass.
 
So here is a question for you. I walked out of that meet telling my kids that it was in no way 3.1 miles. But 3 different people measured it and it was. I have read at least 2-3 articles since the race where kids are claiming school records or top 10 times. Heck,, I had 2 boys and 2 girls get into my top 10 runners of all time and our school has won 2 State championships. How do you tell a kid, well the course was legal but we cannot count your time because it was too fast?? How is it fair to either kids, those that are getting bumped or those you are not allowing. Now, I heard some corners may have been cut. Not sure where. I did see in the boys race the kids in front knock a pole down and mid packers cut it, but we are talking a few seconds(and they set it back up for the 2nd loop). the girls missed a pole because the 4 wheeler did not go around it, but again, maybe a few seconds. I did not see any other cuts or have my kids say, "oh yeah, everybody was cutting corners all over the place." Course are made so fast anymore it is not even true cross country. Like I said earlier, they ran at least a mile on the horse track, a well groomed dirt track, along with possibly running on the dirt drives. So again, my question is, what do you do about records??
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
That is what it says on baumspage, that Malone will be at GlenOak.
After the half-completion of Pioneer Park, Malone doesn't have an on-campus XC course anymore (project stalled out when donor pulled the remainder of the funding). They have a really nice wall though.
 

Runningfast

New member
Hudson is on a roll! They look great early. So does Solon. So does Olentangy Orange. Always fun to see how the season unfolds.

I'm really impressed by teams like Solon and Hudson who continually put out strong teams year after year. Neither has the huge enrollment (OHSAA enrollment count 543 for hudson and 636 for Solon), but they compete at a HIGH level most years. For reference, Mason is listed as 1299. St. Xavier at 1083.
 

psycho_dad

Active member
So here is a question for you. I walked out of that meet telling my kids that it was in no way 3.1 miles. But 3 different people measured it and it was. I have read at least 2-3 articles since the race where kids are claiming school records or top 10 times. Heck,, I had 2 boys and 2 girls get into my top 10 runners of all time and our school has won 2 State championships. How do you tell a kid, well the course was legal but we cannot count your time because it was too fast?? How is it fair to either kids, those that are getting bumped or those you are not allowing. Now, I heard some corners may have been cut. Not sure where. I did see in the boys race the kids in front knock a pole down and mid packers cut it, but we are talking a few seconds(and they set it back up for the 2nd loop). the girls missed a pole because the 4 wheeler did not go around it, but again, maybe a few seconds. I did not see any other cuts or have my kids say, "oh yeah, everybody was cutting corners all over the place." Course are made so fast anymore it is not even true cross country. Like I said earlier, they ran at least a mile on the horse track, a well groomed dirt track, along with possibly running on the dirt drives. So again, my question is, what do you do about records??
Those who are getting bumped, don't care. If it's a legit 5k, you have to count it. It's the nature of the sport now. My son asked me yesterday morning if I ever ran any of the courses he runs. Not a one. We have even done away with Goodyear which is a huge disappointment to me and about 15 other people. Bring your team to CVNP and they can compare their times.
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
So here is a question for you. I walked out of that meet telling my kids that it was in no way 3.1 miles. But 3 different people measured it and it was. I have read at least 2-3 articles since the race where kids are claiming school records or top 10 times. Heck,, I had 2 boys and 2 girls get into my top 10 runners of all time and our school has won 2 State championships. How do you tell a kid, well the course was legal but we cannot count your time because it was too fast?? How is it fair to either kids, those that are getting bumped or those you are not allowing. Now, I heard some corners may have been cut. Not sure where. I did see in the boys race the kids in front knock a pole down and mid packers cut it, but we are talking a few seconds(and they set it back up for the 2nd loop). the girls missed a pole because the 4 wheeler did not go around it, but again, maybe a few seconds. I did not see any other cuts or have my kids say, "oh yeah, everybody was cutting corners all over the place." Course are made so fast anymore it is not even true cross country. Like I said earlier, they ran at least a mile on the horse track, a well groomed dirt track, along with possibly running on the dirt drives. So again, my question is, what do you do about records??
You go with what you know. If the kid ran the distance, you shouldn't penalize him or her on the basis of surface quality.

Now, a few years ago, we had a girl run 18:39 in her opener on a course that was reputedly short (I GPSed it .1 short, and everybody and their brother has known for years that layout was short). We couldn't in good conscience award her the school record vs. an 18:40 that was run 7 years earlier at a district meet and was duplicated at the state meet 2 weeks later that season. For a school record, you're really just comparing the record breaker's performance to the previous record holder's performance. That might differ from what you do for a Top 10 list or an all-time list.

We have an all-time list for the 5K era ('82-present). On that list, the 18:39 is first because that time is being compared to EVERYBODY else on the list and not just the 18:40. It also comes with an asterisk and an explanation of why it is not recognized as the school record. I wasn't around long enough to know which PRs on the list came from short courses from years ago, so for the purpose of that list, it makes sense to honor everyone's best time. If I knew every PR that came from short courses, the list would look different. Again, you go with what you know at the end of the day.
 

psycho_dad

Active member
NDCL may be ready to give Woodridge a run for their money in the NE:
15:52 Sr
16:00 Sr
16:23 Jr
17:02 Sr
17:18 Sr
17:23 Soph
17:24 Soph
If NDCL can 1,2,3 Woodridge, then it's close. If by run for their money you mean put 2 in Woodridge's top 5, then I agree, They might be able to do that.
 
How short was the course at Berkshire?
The course at Berkshire was definitely short, probably at least by 200m. You'd think an accurate course would have been a top priority of theirs after last year's debacle, but clearly it wasn't. I would not acknowledge times from that meet on a school 5k leaderboard.
 

psycho_dad

Active member
The course at Berkshire was definitely short, probably at least by 200m. You'd think an accurate course would have been a top priority of theirs after last year's debacle, but clearly it wasn't. I would not acknowledge times from that meet on a school 5k leaderboard.
But Gatornation says 3 people measured it and said it was 3.1 (5k) how do you know it wasn't?
 

madman

Active member
This is second-hand information, but what I've been told is that the course was on a horse track and the parking areas (dirt) nearby. It was closer to a road race than a typical XC race in NEO. I have no idea what the length of the course was, but with ideal conditions temp, humidity, & surface, it's not surprising that the times were unusually fast.

Every course is different. We'll have an idea of how faster this course was than a typical course when we get results from this weekend and can compare times among multiple teams/courses with those who were at Berkshire.

I've never considered keeping school records for XC. Think of Boardman in 2006 and Galion in almost any year. It's not a fair fight.
 

psycho_dad

Active member
Ahhh.....2006.... Woodridge scored 21 at Boardman Spartan Invite... I believe 15 at the Regional and went 1,2,6,9,25 at the state for 43. Good Times.
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
Ahhh.....2006.... Woodridge scored 21 at Boardman Spartan Invite... I believe 15 at the Regional and went 1,2,6,9,25 at the state for 43. Good Times.
Y'all didn't 15 that regional meet. It was 19. Your #5 let you down and only placed 9th in the team scoring. Dude should've been cut in the summer. The state champ (Melhorn) was 5th overall that day, and the guy who would win state 2 years later (Eick) was 16th.

We held you to 23 at the district meet that year.

Those were good times, indeed.
 

psycho_dad

Active member
Y'all didn't 15 that regional meet. It was 19. Your #5 let you down and only placed 9th in the team scoring. Dude should've been cut in the summer. The state champ (Melhorn) was 5th overall that day, and the guy who would win state 2 years later (Eick) was 16th.

We held you to 23 at the district meet that year.

Those were good times, indeed.
LOL, I know it wasn't 15... I can't tell you how many people come up to me and say they remember when they saw Woodridge 15 the Regional back in 2006. I just laugh and say I can't remember that far back. I knew it would be you that would catch on and be able to point out it was 19. The bad thing, and I'm even a little guilty of this, is that people sort of look at the #5 as the weak link. He was 25th in the state meet scoring. Who wouldn't kill for that! To be truthful, Melhorn was just being careful at the Regional and making sure he got through. 23 still would have been impressive at the Regional.
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
LOL, I know it wasn't 15... I can't tell you how many people come up to me and say they remember when they saw Woodridge 15 the Regional back in 2006. I just laugh and say I can't remember that far back. I knew it would be you that would catch on and be able to point out it was 19. The bad thing, and I'm even a little guilty of this, is that people sort of look at the #5 as the weak link. He was 25th in the state meet scoring. Who wouldn't kill for that! To be truthful, Melhorn was just being careful at the Regional and making sure he got through. 23 still would have been impressive at the Regional.
I remember that boys race as well as the hailstorm that befell the girls at the end of their DII race. It was not my school's boys' finest hour, but they were longshots to advance in that field from back when DII Boardman owned the state (Aurora was always so underrated but always found a way to qualify and place well at state). Melhorn wasn't a team scorer in that regional race, so he could've placed anywhere (IIRC, the 4 teams out of Malone that year were Woodridge, Canton CC, Minerva, and Marlington). Fairless wasn't close to getting out of districts even with Melhorn and a 9th grade Chase Robinson leading the way. I remember Melhorn slipped and fell early in that regional race and just ran to qualify. I also remember either your 3rd or 4th guy wiped out coming around the pole before the 4k mark, but there was nobody near him, so he had plenty of time to get up and keep on truckin'. That might've been the finest boys team performance I ever witnessed given the quality of the competition. To anyone outside of NEO, check the DII boys state meet results if you don't believe that was a good regional field.
 
The course at Berkshire was definitely short, probably at least by 200m. You'd think an accurate course would have been a top priority of theirs after last year's debacle, but clearly it wasn't. I would not acknowledge times from that meet on a school 5k leaderboard.
The meet manager acknowledged in an email to me that the course was changed early last week, and that it was short when measured with a GPS watch on the morning of the meet. I suspect that, had the revised course been measured with a wheel instead of a Garmin, the measurement would have been even shorter.
 

psycho_dad

Active member
Here is a scary thing about Woodridge that season. Joe White moved into the Woodridge District, but the closing on the house did not happen before school started and they missed the open enrollment date. He had to go back to $V$M and run CC there and not attend Woodridge until the Spring. Woodridge could have gone 1,2,5,6,9 at the state meet with him.

Wow, I should look things up. I honestly assumed that Melhorn and Robinson got Fairless out of the District.

Was it 2007 that they only took 2 boys teams out of the Goodyear District and $V$M didn't make it out. They were good.
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
Here is a scary thing about Woodridge that season. Joe White moved into the Woodridge District, but the closing on the house did not happen before school started and they missed the open enrollment date. He had to go back to $V$M and run CC there and not attend Woodridge until the Spring. Woodridge could have gone 1,2,5,6,9 at the state meet with him.

Wow, I should look things up. I honestly assumed that Melhorn and Robinson got Fairless out of the District.

Was it 2007 that they only took 2 boys teams out of the Goodyear District and $V$M didn't make it out. They were good.
It was both '07 and '08. 7 teams in the race, and only 2 got out. Walsh Jesuit and CVCA were the 2 that got out both years. St. V's '07 team wasn't great but still regional quality. Their '08 team put 5 under 18:00 on Goodyear's course and were still 5 pts. short of advancing! Never understood the logic of holding a district so small that it would be advancing less teams than would advance out of the regional. Should've just split those teams up among other district meets or sent them all down to Malone to run a DII super-district like we had at Goodyear from '99-'05 (24-28 teams w/ 6 or 7 advancing).
 

psycho_dad

Active member
I sort of have '07 and '08 mashed together. Are'07 and '08 results available? I have not gone back and looked. Last time I checked there weren't any results for the District at Malone for those years. I was looking for results for my oldest son and my daughter a few years ago and they weren't there. I just assume there aren't any available for some years. What I recall is that Wal$h, $V$M and CVCA dominated, but that some runners for Coventry and Norton grabbed a few places that made a difference. I was upset that the NEDAB would screw over good teams like that. They continue to do it, so I'm not even shocked anymore.
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
I sort of have '07 and '08 mashed together. Are'07 and '08 results available? I have not gone back and looked. Last time I checked there weren't any results for the District at Malone for those years. I was looking for results for my oldest son and my daughter a few years ago and they weren't there. I just assume there aren't any available for some years. What I recall is that Wal$h, $V$M and CVCA dominated, but that some runners for Coventry and Norton grabbed a few places that made a difference. I was upset that the NEDAB would screw over good teams like that. They continue to do it, so I'm not even shocked anymore.
Not sure if the links are still active via baumspage, but the OHSAA has them.
'07 Districts Hub: https://www.ohsaa.org/sports/cc/2007/Districts/distrslts.htm
'07 Regionals Hub: https://www.ohsaa.org/sports/cc/2007/Regionals/regrslts07.htm
'08 Districts Hub: https://www.ohsaa.org/sports/cc/2008/Districts/distrslts.htm
'08 Regionals Hub: https://www.ohsaa.org/sports/cc/2008/Regionals/regrslts08.htm

If you want to see the '06 district results for the Woodies, the Goodyear results pop up if you click on Malone. In the URL, if you change where it says "akron" to "canton", the Malone results will appear for that race.
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
Getting back to the original topic, a coach pointed out to me tonight that the Hudson runner who won the race at GlenOak last weekend won the JV race at GlenOak last year as a freshman. He went from 17:36 last year to 16:13 last Saturday on the same course, and I reckon fairly similar conditions. That's not too shabby.
 
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