Has this ever happened before?

Kirtland4580

Active member
Kirtland, as much history as it has made recently, might have run into its own history if you know what I mean by that.

On its way to the 2019 state title, the Hornets faced Sandy Valley (RQF), South Range (RSF), Manchester (RF), Oak Harbor (F4), & Ironton (SC), effectively ending all of their seasons and winning the state title.

RQF= Regional Quarterfinal
RSF= Regional Semifinal
RF= Regional Final
F4= Final Four
SC= State Championship


To win the 2020 state title (albeit in a somewhat extended postseason), they beat FOUR of the five teams they eliminated last year on the way to another championship.

This year the Hornets beat Manchester in the 2nd round, Sandy Valley in the RQF, South Range in the RF, and Ironton again in the title.
The only team Kirtland didn’t play in consecutive postseasons was Oak Harbor who had their postseason cancelled by COVID.

Has anyone ever eliminated the same four teams in consecutive postseasons? Certainly an interesting stat to research...

I don’t know, I thought this was an interesting find. What say you?
 
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TriangleMan

Well-known member
Has anyone ever eliminated the same four teams in consecutive postseasons? Certainly an interesting stat to research...
So, when there were 4 teams per region, you'd need to look at only years where a champion defeated the same team in back-to-back championship games.

With 8 teams per region, you'd need to look at only teams that made it to back-to-back championship games (championship loser would have eliminated 4 teams).

Also, just a semantics thing with me - I don't consider the winner of any championship game as having eliminated the loser, as it's the final game for both. There is no further competition to be held, i.e. nothing exists to be eliminated from competing in.

Edit: re-worded the 4 team area
 
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Kirtland4580

Active member
So, when there were 4 teams per region, you'd need to look at only back-to-back championship winners.

With 8 teams per region, you'd need to look at only teams that made it to back-to-back championship games (championship loser would have eliminated 4 teams).

Also, just a semantics thing with me - I don't consider the winner of any championship game as having eliminated the loser, as it's the final game for both. There is no further competition to be held, i.e. nothing exists to be eliminated from competing in.
That’s fair. But I will say I found it very interesting they ran into the same four teams in back to back playoffs, wouldn’t you say?

Certainly you would have to look in the 8-team per region era for this stat. And in fact, if this were a normal year, Manchester would have missed the playoffs IMO.
 

YTOWN

Well-known member
Without actually studying it to my knowledge the answer is no.

As Triangle Man said from 1985-1998 only teams that repeated as champion even had the possibility of doing it. Off the top of my head the only two team I can think of that meets that criteria in those years is Akron Buchtel in 87 & 88. Buchtel beat Big Red in the final both years but they did not play the same 4 teams in 88 that they did in 87. I think they played two. The other teams that I can think of that repeated did not play thee same opponent in consecutive finals.

From 99-present I can't think of anybody beating the same 4 teams in back-back seasons, possibly 3 but not 4.
 

Kirtland4580

Active member
Without actually studying it to my knowledge the answer is no.

As Triangle Man said from 1985-1998 only teams that repeated as champion even had the possibility of doing it. Off the top of my head the only two team I can think of that meets that criteria in those years is Akron Buchtel in 87 & 88. Buchtel beat Big Red in the final both years but they did not play the same 4 teams in 88 that they did in 87. I think they played two. The other teams that I can think of that repeated did not play thee same opponent in consecutive finals.

From 99-present I can't think of anybody beating the same 4 teams in back-back seasons, possibly 3 but not 4.
Very informative. I could imagine someone facing two teams in regionals in consecutive years & then perhaps a rematch in the state semi or final. Thanks for the further insight YTOWN!
 

TriangleMan

Well-known member
From 99-present I can't think of anybody beating the same 4 teams in back-back seasons, possibly 3 but not 4.
So I researched the years '99 - '20 using only the criteria I mentioned previously (looked only at teams that made it to back-to-back championship games). I found no teams, other than Kirtland in '19 & '20, that defeated the same four teams in consecutive postseasons.

In fact, I found only two teams that eliminated the same three teams in consecutive postseasons.

Columbus Bishop Hartley (Div IV)
  1. Port Clinton RQF-15/RSF-16
  2. Ottawa-Glandorf RSF-15/RF-16
  3. Steubenville SC-15/SC-16
Toledo Central Catholic (Div III)
  1. Rocky River RQF-14/RQF-15
  2. Clyde RF-14/RSF-15
  3. Trotwood-Madison F4-14/F4-15
Starting tomorrow, I'm going to try to get a life. :)

Edit: changed 'eliminated' to 'defeated'
 
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USA70PP

Well-known member
So I researched the years '99 - '20 using only the criteria I mentioned previously (looked only at teams that made it to back-to-back championship games). I found no teams, other than Kirtland in '19 & '20, that eliminated the same four teams in consecutive postseasons.

In fact, I found only two teams that eliminated the same three teams in consecutive postseasons.

Columbus Bishop Hartley (Div IV)
  1. Port Clinton RQF-15/RSF-16
  2. Ottawa-Glandorf RSF-15/RF-16
  3. Steubenville SC-15/SC-16
Toledo Central Catholic (Div III)
  1. Rocky River RQF-14/RQF-15
  2. Clyde RF-14/RSF-15
  3. Trotwood-Madison F4-14/F4-15
Starting tomorrow, I'm going to try to get a life. :)
When you say YTOWN you've said it all. His memory is better than most computers.
 

algernonsidney

Active member
This is extremely impressive because Kirtland was playing four teams that were hellbent on revenge. These teams were remembering that loss and wondering about what they would do if they met again. Kirtland went out and beat them again.
 

Kirtland4580

Active member
So I researched the years '99 - '20 using only the criteria I mentioned previously (looked only at teams that made it to back-to-back championship games). I found no teams, other than Kirtland in '19 & '20, that eliminated the same four teams in consecutive postseasons.

In fact, I found only two teams that eliminated the same three teams in consecutive postseasons.

Columbus Bishop Hartley (Div IV)
  1. Port Clinton RQF-15/RSF-16
  2. Ottawa-Glandorf RSF-15/RF-16
  3. Steubenville SC-15/SC-16
Toledo Central Catholic (Div III)
  1. Rocky River RQF-14/RQF-15
  2. Clyde RF-14/RSF-15
  3. Trotwood-Madison F4-14/F4-15
Starting tomorrow, I'm going to try to get a life. :)
That’s amazing you were able to tabulate that so quickly! Thanks for answering my question for me. Makes Kirtland’s run all the more remarkable this year.
 

Kirtland4580

Active member
This is extremely impressive because Kirtland was playing four teams that were hellbent on revenge. These teams were remembering that loss and wondering about what they would do if they met again. Kirtland went out and beat them again.
This was exactly my thinking. I know that coming into the season, people were hoping for a rematch with Ironton. But we ended having a rematch with three of our other playoff teams we beat first; South Range giving us the most difficult time.

I’m still soaking in the Ironton victory as I don’t think the game necessarily represented the true disparity between the two teams, but that’s just my opinion.
 

TriangleMan

Well-known member
This was exactly my thinking. I know that coming into the season, people were hoping for a rematch with Ironton. But we ended having a rematch with three of our other playoff teams we beat first; South Range giving us the most difficult time.

I’m still soaking in the Ironton victory as I don’t think the game necessarily represented the true disparity between the two teams, but that’s just my opinion.
Rather than waiting for tomorrow, I attempted to start getting a life tonight, but a bottle of bourbon got in my way, so bear with me.

Think about what it would take for this scenario to unfold. Some nerd statistics whiz could probably whip this out in no time, but I am definitely not one of those.

For this to happen, to defeat the same 4 teams in two consecutive seasons:
  • Previous year's playoff opponents need to be in this year's Division (Competitive Balance effect at all three levels - Regional/State Semi/State Final).
  • Previous year's playoff opponents need to be in this year's region (OHSAA/Competitive Balance again, to optimize a 2-3-win repeat within the region).
  • Seedings per Harbin points would have to be somewhat symmetrical at some point between seasons for matchup reasons (1-8, 2-7, 3-6, 4-5)
  • State Semifinal matchup of regions needs to lineup properly
 

Maple_City_Fan

Well-known member
Regarding Toledo Central Catholic-Clyde, Fliers eliminated Irish in 2013 Regional Final before losing to Trotwood in State Semi.
 

Raylan_Givens

Well-known member
Side note - these type of conversations are why I can't "quit" logging in. When I try to talk about stuff like this with my coworkers or friends it usually ends up with someone checking a watch they're not wearing or answering a call that their cell phone isn't getting. THANK YOU
- back to the conversation
 

YTOWN

Well-known member
Is that anything like "I'm not as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I ever was."?
No. It's more like "it's not what it used to be, it's better!" :)

In all seriousness sometimes, not often but sometimes, I have to think for a little bit about things that used to come to me instantly. I'm hoping it doesn't get to the point where I wake up in the middle of the night 3 days later and blurt out an answer to a question I couldn't think of in the moment. :)
 

YTOWN

Well-known member
Above we talked above about playing the same teams in the playoffs so a few related playoff trivia questions and some totally unrelated:

1) Which two teams have played the most playoff games against each other? Teams & number of games played please.

2) Which two teams have played the most playoff games against each other with one team winning every game? Teams & number of games played please.

3) Kirtland and New Bremen posted shutouts in their title game victories. MSML has posted the most playoff shutouts and title game shutouts but which team has suffered the most playoff game shutouts? Team and number of shutouts please. = (Minster - 8) - Rangerfan

4) Which team has played the most playoff games without suffering a shutout? Team and number please.

5) Coldwater just pulled off the old "Beat a Champ, Be a Champ" trick for the 5th time but which team has defeated an eventual state champion in the regular season the most times without ever winning a state title themselves? There are two teams actually, one has a title game appearance the other does not. Teams and number please.

For those unfamiliar with "Beat a Champ, Be a Champ" it just means that Team A defeated Team B in the regular season. Team B then went on to win a state championship as did Team A. This year Coldwater (Team A) defeated New Bremen (Team B), D7 champ, and won the D6 title themselves. If MLC had beaten Van Wert Kirtland would have done it as well.

6) Other than MAC teams which public schools have managed the "Beat a Champ, Be a Champ" feat? Teams and year accomplished please.

7) Which team has won the most playoff games without making a state title game appearance? Team and number of wins please. = (Danville - 24) - TriangleMan

8) Which team with multiple state title game appearances has the least number of playoff wins? Team and number of wins please. = (Ashtabula Sts. John & Paul 2 - finals appearances - 3 playoff wins.) - TriangleMan

9) Which teams with multiple state titles has the least number of playoff wins? Teams and number of wins please. = (C.A.P.E. & Middletown Bishop Fenwick, with 16 wins) - TriangleMan

10) Which state title winning team has the lowest playoff winning percentage? Team and winning percentage please. = (Crooksville with a 7-14 playoff record = .333 winning percentage.) Kirtland4580

Bonus question) Which team has a 1.000 playoff winning percentage? Team please. = (Camden Preble Shawnee - defeated Batavia Clermont NE and than had to withdraw form the playoffs due to Covid-19) - TriangleMan
 
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YTOWN

Well-known member
West Chester Lakota - 2-0 in only appearance in 1995 (gained 1 win due to forfeiture).
Technically that may be true because OHSAA may have handled it that way but I did not given WCL a win there because only Brunswick got to advance. Plus one would have to charge Colerain with 3 losses in one appearance so I only gave Brunswick a "win."

There is one other team, that's the one I am looking for.
 

TriangleMan

Well-known member
8) Which team with multiple state title game appearances has the least number of playoff wins? Team and number of wins please.
Ashtabula Sts. John and Paul - 3. (7) appearances, 3-7 record, championship appearances in '76 and '77.
 
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