Has the Browns' next Head Coaching Search already begun, or could be we getting more Freddie ?

bedevil

Well-known member
This is what is wrong with the Browns .... the answer to their problems is always fire the coach ... lets just look at the other organization in our division, Baltimore had a chance to fire Harbaugh last year ... didn't and was rewarded with a great season. Pittsburgh had a chance to fire Tomlin ... didn't and was rewarded with maybe Tomlin's best coaching season ... in fact, Pittsburgh has been the model of consistency since the 1970's ... had a chance to fire Noll early on didn't was rewarded with 4 Super Bowls ... had a chance to fire Cowher, didn't was rewarded with a Super Bowl.

Just one time I would like to see the answer be NOT to fire the coach ... call him in after the season and sit down with him and have a heart to heart with him ... tell him, this is what you did right, and this is what we need to change(fix) .... for once try to have the answer come from within the organization instead of just starting all over, again, again, and again.
I agree with you...to a point. Both Harbaugh and Tomlin were first-time NFL head coaches when they were hired. Both followed Super Bowl winning coaches and the franchise was blessed with stable front offices. There was a culture of winning is place, something Kitchens didn't have waiting for him when he was hired.

Dorsey, I think, will be a mainstay, and he has largely succeeded. What Kitchens DID have that he shared with Harbaugh and Tomlin were talented rosters. This is where the separation begins, I believe. I think Kitchens has underperformed developing winning game plans. There is a serious lack of creativity and week-to-week adjustments, and those are glaring faults that hasn't shown improvement and has cost the Browns some wins.

Ask yourself a question: if there was one area, specifically, where the Browns need to improve, where would that be? I'm all for patience. But the window, with this roster, isn't going to stay open for very long because of the salary cap issues it will be facing in a couple of years. Is there enough time to practice patience?
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
This is what is wrong with the Browns .... the answer to their problems is always fire the coach ... lets just look at the other organization in our division, Baltimore had a chance to fire Harbaugh last year ... didn't and was rewarded with a great season. Pittsburgh had a chance to fire Tomlin ... didn't and was rewarded with maybe Tomlin's best coaching season ... in fact, Pittsburgh has been the model of consistency since the 1970's ... had a chance to fire Noll early on didn't was rewarded with 4 Super Bowls ... had a chance to fire Cowher, didn't was rewarded with a Super Bowl.

Just one time I would like to see the answer be NOT to fire the coach ... call him in after the season and sit down with him and have a heart to heart with him ... tell him, this is what you did right, and this is what we need to change(fix) .... for once try to have the answer come from within the organization instead of just starting all over, again, again, and again.
I hate the coaching carousel. Hate it. But continuity for it's own sake can be continuity of crap.

I've seen enough. Waffle House Fred will never be a John Harbaugh, Mike Tomlin, a modern-day Chuck Noll, or a Bill Cowher. At the very least, we need a new playbook and a new play-caller.

Even with Baker often scrambling and turning himself into a runner, we have the 4th best yds/run in the league. Chubb is perhaps the most effective runner in the league. 15 teams run more often than we do. Our O-line clearly has far more trouble with pass protection. Yet Fred is nearly like "huck-it Hue" when he loses a lead.

Ever notice that every head coach says that his job is to put his players in the best position to succeed ? Even beyond the difference in schedule from year-to-year, beyond the opportunity for film study of Baker by opponents, beyond the O-line, how does Baker go from being the most effective red zone QB last year, setting the all time rookie TD record in a shortened season, to the struggling guy we've watched all year ? Freddie calling plays, from Freddie/Monken's playbook instead of Haley's playbook. I DO NOT believe Freddie can ever put the players in the best position to succeed as the offensive mind calling plays. Somebody has some "offensive mind" value somewhere in there, because we have played most of the best defenses in the entire league, and WE SCORE MORE ON THE OPENING DRIVE THAN ANYONE. Yet adjusting in game, and especially in the last 5 minutes or so, we are the worst.

When we swing from such extremes, from season to season and in game, there is NO POINT in staying the course that I can see. These aren't Harbaugh, Tomlin, Cowher, or Noll problems and failures we are seeing. They just aren't.
 
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Tomlin & Harbaugh showed right off the bat that they were capable of having success in the NFL which included Super Bowl wins. That is why they were not fired. Both also had coordinator experience. Regardless of how good the situation was when they were hired their teams won ballgames which buys you some time.

Cowher began his career with six straight winning seasons which included a Super Bowl appearance. Also had coordinator experience before he became a head coach.

Noll is the only one listed that had a rough start to his coaching career, but it was a different era then as well. If it was 2019 he may have been fired for his 1-13 first season but then again he inherited a bad team. Also had coordinator experience before becoming head coach.

Freddie has never been more than a positional coach in the NFL and inherited a team that, while not the best (7-8-1), is extremely talented especially in the offensive skill positions. The fact that the offense has regressed under him with the addition of Odell is troubling. Play has been sloppy and undisciplined, play calling very predictable at times. Dude is in over his head. If they keep him they run the risk of wasting all of the talent that has been accumulated over the past couple years.
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
I agree with you...to a point. Both Harbaugh and Tomlin were first-time NFL head coaches when they were hired. Both followed Super Bowl winning coaches and the franchise was blessed with stable front offices. There was a culture of winning is place, something Kitchens didn't have waiting for him when he was hired.

Dorsey, I think, will be a mainstay, and he has largely succeeded. What Kitchens DID have that he shared with Harbaugh and Tomlin were talented rosters. This is where the separation begins, I believe. I think Kitchens has underperformed developing winning game plans. There is a serious lack of creativity and week-to-week adjustments, and those are glaring faults that hasn't shown improvement and has cost the Browns some wins.

Ask yourself a question: if there was one area, specifically, where the Browns need to improve, where would that be? I'm all for patience. But the window, with this roster, isn't going to stay open for very long because of the salary cap issues it will be facing in a couple of years. Is there enough time to practice patience?
The main consideration with judging Dorsey, in my mind, is that we really don't know where the line between a Haslam decision and a Dorsey decision really falls on last year's head coaching hire.

I do believe that Dorsey had player selection autonomy, and that in that Haslam left him alone. I do believe he made full use of his staff and talked to coaches, but the buck stopped with him. Those were his final decisions to put skill player acquisition ahead of a solid line, and he both whiffed on Corbett and let perhaps last year's best O-lineman get away.

With all that said, he has been overall a positive. He and Haslam both said to slow the roll with all the rosy projections for this year, and it's easier to get O-line and linebackers with a 8-8 draft position. I can see a plan with Dorsey, unlike Freddie and his Waffle House menu on the sidelines.
 

joesports

Well-known member
My guess is that they beat the Cardinals and the Bengals for three more wins. The Haslams want to slow down the coaching turnstile, so they hold on to him but force him to bring in an experienced disciplinarian as "vice principal"/quality control director. Someone a little older who has been successful as a head coach that can mentor Freddie and be the hardass with the players.
This sounds like a smart move to me.
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
Tomlin & Harbaugh showed right off the bat that they were capable of having success in the NFL which included Super Bowl wins. That is why they were not fired. Both also had coordinator experience. Regardless of how good the situation was when they were hired their teams won ballgames which buys you some time.

Cowher began his career with six straight winning seasons which included a Super Bowl appearance. Also had coordinator experience before he became a head coach.

Noll is the only one listed that had a rough start to his coaching career, but it was a different era then as well. If it was 2019 he may have been fired for his 1-13 first season but then again he inherited a bad team. Also had coordinator experience before becoming head coach.

Freddie has never been more than a positional coach in the NFL and inherited a team that, while not the best (7-8-1), is extremely talented especially in the offensive skill positions. The fact that the offense has regressed under him with the addition of Odell is troubling. Play has been sloppy and undisciplined, play calling very predictable at times. Dude is in over his head. If they keep him they run the risk of wasting all of the talent that has been accumulated over the past couple years.
I feel badly for Freddie. I think he is a good guy, and that as you say he rose too quickly and has too much on his plate. I just don't see him getting his mind around the totality of the game. He panics behind his menu when the lead goes, we don't adjust to adjustments, ever. He tried to fit the calls to the team last year, and now he seems to fall flat on his face in that regard.

At least the penalties seem to be going away. That has improved.
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
My guess is that they beat the Cardinals and the Bengals for three more wins. The Haslams want to slow down the coaching turnstile, so they hold on to him but force him to bring in an experienced disciplinarian as "vice principal"/quality control director. Someone a little older who has been successful as a head coach that can mentor Freddie and be the hardass with the players.
I suspect that he may have been too much of "a players' coach", but I don't see that as the biggest problem at all. They've reduced penalties, right ? The play-calling/adjustments are where the major failures come from, and continue to do so.

It is difficult as a leader to start easy and then firm up discipline, but if both areas are problematic, continuity is pointless.
 

joesports

Well-known member
Ground hogs day .... 7 coaches in the last ten years!!!!!!!!!!!!

Has changing coaches improved things ???

Since 1999 --- Palmer to Davis to Crennel to Mangini to Shurmur to Chudzinski to Pettine to Jackson to Kitchens (left off Interim coaches)

Just once try to help the coach improve instead of firing him ... instead of starting all over again .... if you get a new coach ... half the team "won't fit his system" and will be traded ... stay the course with minor improvement ... similar to what Clark suggested.

What 'good' coach is going to want to come here with his kind of disfunction?????
 

Michael Bluth

Well-known member
Don't tell me about the schedule when they got boatraced by the Titans at home, lost to Pitt's 3rd string quarterback, lost to the 4-8 Denver Broncos and have racked up record numbers of penalties and embarrassing moments along the way
 
As I said in my earlier post, if they do not clean house (also looking at you Steve Wilks) they risk wasting all of the talent that has been accumulated over the past few years. These guys have checked out on Freddie and if he comes back you're going to have a lot of guys looking to get out as quickly as possible. Can't blame them one bit.
 

y2h

Well-known member
Now you are just trying to make this thread a sham.

Be realistic.

10+ wins in 2020 and their window of legit contending for a SB is 2021-2024.
Everyone will be gone by then. The NFL is a win now league.

Ian Rappaport thinks he's sticking around.
As much as the Haslems enjoy mediocrity that wouldn't be a surprise.

Undiciplined? Check. Head scratching playcalling? Check. Playing flat on a regular basis? Check.

All goes back to coaching. How you get bent over by a team salivating over their top 10 pick in the upcoming draft with the playoffs still in front of you is mindboggling.
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
My guess is that they beat the Cardinals and the Bengals for three more wins. The Haslams want to slow down the coaching turnstile, so they hold on to him but force him to bring in an experienced disciplinarian as "vice principal"/quality control director. Someone a little older who has been successful as a head coach that can mentor Freddie and be the hardass with the players.
This sounds like a smart move to me.
Still sound smart ?
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
Don't tell me about the schedule when they got boatraced by the Titans at home, lost to Pitt's 3rd string quarterback, lost to the 4-8 Denver Broncos and have racked up record numbers of penalties and embarrassing moments along the way
And in case anyone forgot, the Marcus Mariotta Tiatans beat us 43-13. He was later benched and the Titans improved.

So. Mariotta, Duck, Denver's Brandon Allen that has since done so badly he returned to the bench for Drew Lock redux, and now Kyler Murray.



Freddie must go.
 

wolves82

Well-known member
Seems clear to me Freddie has lost the locker room. Urban was in Washington yesterday , is he considering an NFL coaching stint? A NE Ohio guy with that resume?
 
Seems clear to me Freddie has lost the locker room. Urban was in Washington yesterday , is he considering an NFL coaching stint? A NE Ohio guy with that resume?
I used to be a very firm "no" when the issue comes up about the Browns hiring a college coach with no NFL experience, but I have to say that at this point I'll take someone with HEAD COACHING experience at a big time program (like Ohio St.) who is detail-oriented, structured, and a LEADER. Meyer checks all of those boxes and I think personality-wise he can relate better with grown men then say Nick Saban who was a disaster in Miami. Also one of if not the best attribute that Meyer possesses is an ability to surround himself with amazing assistant coaches. And before someone comes on here and lectures me about "Coaching in college is different than NFL" let me just say that yes I 100% get the argument. None of what I said guarantees anything with a guy like Meyer at the NFL level but I would damn sure rather take a chance with a guy like him then watch another year with Freddie trying to run the show.
 

Irwin20

Well-known member
Where is the Browns fan that was hyping all preseason and until the second Steeler game? BRB something. He appeared to be a very stout fan I understand he’s upset , just find it interesting when people hide when things aren’t going well.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
Seems clear to me Freddie has lost the locker room. Urban was in Washington yesterday , is he considering an NFL coaching stint? A NE Ohio guy with that resume?
I heard Cowher was looking at houses in the Cleveland area recently,,
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
I used to be a very firm "no" when the issue comes up about the Browns hiring a college coach with no NFL experience, but I have to say that at this point I'll take someone with HEAD COACHING experience at a big time program (like Ohio St.) who is detail-oriented, structured, and a LEADER. Meyer checks all of those boxes and I think personality-wise he can relate better with grown men then say Nick Saban who was a disaster in Miami. Also one of if not the best attribute that Meyer possesses is an ability to surround himself with amazing assistant coaches. And before someone comes on here and lectures me about "Coaching in college is different than NFL" let me just say that yes I 100% get the argument. None of what I said guarantees anything with a guy like Meyer at the NFL level but I would damn sure rather take a chance with a guy like him then watch another year with Freddie trying to run the show.
While I kind of agree Meyer could do better than Waffle House Fred, I don't imagine he'd be the best choice by any stretch. He's going to ND or USC, anyway.
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
Where is the Browns fan that was hyping all preseason and until the second Steeler game? BRB something. He appeared to be a very stout fan I understand he’s upset , just find it interesting when people hide when things aren’t going well.
BR is busy recruiting Ron Rivera.
 
While I kind of agree Meyer could do better than Waffle House Fred, I don't imagine he'd be the best choice by any stretch. He's going to ND or USC, anyway.
I agree. There is a good chance he flops at the NFL level. At this point I’m just looking at who I would be on board with over Freddie and I guess that’s most candidates lol
 

y2h

Well-known member
He made a pretty funny tweet yesterday, someting about Freddie assured him that the leadership had every confidence in him, and then they betrayed him. Covering his tracks, I guess.
Yes nothing demands loyalty like going 6-10 and getting blown out by a 2-14 team on the way out the door.
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
Here is the Plain Dealer's candidates list


Sporting News' take


Channel 3 - WKYC


Brownswire USA Today-

 
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cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
Yes nothing demands loyalty like going 6-10 and getting blown out by a 2-14 team on the way out the door.

I am equally frustrated by the appearance noted by many that "...some of the players QUIT!....", but when you see articles and hear talk that maybe "Freddie could save his job with a win over the Bengals...", can we be mad if they want to be sure he's gone ?
 
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