General NFL Chat

thavoice

Well-known member
I was hoping Buffalo would have beaten KC, because I think that TB12 has a better chance at beating Buffalo than KC....

Also, call me stupid, and I like Pats Mahomey, but I dont want it to be so damned easy for him and the Chiefs so early in his career!
 

thavoice

Well-known member
It's not sadistic at all. I would much rather have had the Bills beat KC and then lose to Brady in the Super Bowl then to lose yesterday and not make the big game.

But yes, a lot of Bills fans were thinking along your lines and that's why they were all rooting for Green Bay yesterday.

This Bills loss reminds me of their loss to the Bengals in the 1988 championship game. Buffalo and particularly Kelly played poorly and the better team won. But at the time I had a sense that the Bills were at the beginning of something special. I have the same feeling today.
Here is the problem:
AFC is loaded with great QB talent, and more to come with the White Kylo Ren from Clemson going to Jax. Buffalo may be onto something special, but because Mahomes will dominate for decades will leave a lot of good AFC QBs super bowl less.

Sorta like TB and NE did..
 

lotr10

Well-known member
Here is the problem:
AFC is loaded with great QB talent, and more to come with the White Kylo Ren from Clemson going to Jax. Buffalo may be onto something special, but because Mahomes will dominate for decades will leave a lot of good AFC QBs super bowl less.

Sorta like TB and NE did..
That's certainly a realistic possibility but two things make me believe just the opposite will happen:

1) This crop of AFC QB's plus Lawrence and probably Fields will be the best the AFC has ever had. Even TB & NE wouldn't have been able keep this group out of multiple Super Bowls.

2) Even atheists acknowledge the existence of a CAP hell and the Chiefs are already there. They will not be able to hold on to the top talent. And while Reid has shown that he can win a Super Bowl with great talent he hasn't demonstrated he can win them with lesser talent as coaches like Parcels & Belichick have done.

I see the AFC as being a highly competitive churn over the next 5 - 10 years. This may even be the last year you see the same team advance to the SB from the AFC two years in a row. The Bills will be in the mix every year and I expect that in the next decade they'll make it to two SB's. Whether they finally win one is another matter.
 

14Red

Well-known member
That's certainly a realistic possibility but two things make me believe just the opposite will happen:

1) This crop of AFC QB's plus Lawrence and probably Fields will be the best the AFC has ever had. Even TB & NE wouldn't have been able keep this group out of multiple Super Bowls.

2) Even atheists acknowledge the existence of a CAP hell and the Chiefs are already there. They will not be able to hold on to the top talent. And while Reid has shown that he can win a Super Bowl with great talent he hasn't demonstrated he can win them with lesser talent as coaches like Parcels & Belichick have done.

I see the AFC as being a highly competitive churn over the next 5 - 10 years. This may even be the last year you see the same team advance to the SB from the AFC two years in a row. The Bills will be in the mix every year and I expect that in the next decade they'll make it to two SB's. Whether they finally win one is another matter.
We do this about every year with quarterbacks and it's a crap shoot at best. Yes Lawrence and probably Fields will get their shots, but it's way to early to classify these guys as long time NFL starters. I'm even holding out on Baker and Justin Herbert of San Diego. At this point, 3 years in, Baker is still a work in progress(ive-ha). When the Browns are running the ball effectively and he's in rhythm, he can make some throws, but something tells me he wants to be a gunslinger, not a game manager, and that's going to be the Browns biggest factor moving forward. They have a great running game, will Baker allow it to happen? And Herbert, while he did play this year and make some plays, he lost alot of games. Is SD going to be ok winning half their games every year? Nope. The expectations rise on these kids, sometimes warranted, alot of times not and teams get impatient and move on. I have little hope that Tua is anywhere near what's been expected of him. Joe Burrow, will he be able to stay healthy as a Bengal?

The thing the Chiefs have going for them is while they have alot of weapons, you can replace many of the guys they have. Mahomes is the key. He can make alot of rank and file receivers look like pro bowlers. Do they get into a war with guys who want paid, and are they going to be able to let "good" players walk and replace them to have new stars? If I'm KC, I'm taking care of Mahomes and the O-line and defense.
 

wolves82

Well-known member
I have an unpopular opinion:

Anyone who thinks that Mahomes is head and shoulders above all the other young QBs is wrong. He is excellent and very gifted, but he is also very lucky to be surrounded by special guys like Kelce, Hill, and the rest of the cast. And most importantly, he has Andy Reid, the best offensive mind going. Their offensive sets and play calling is just plain better than the rest. Add that to all the talent, and you have an unstoppable offense.

I think if you took Deshaun Watson and plunked him into Mahomes spot, the results would be the same. Possibly also a few of the other young QBs. Situation has a lot to do with Mahomes success. If Mahomes had been drafted by the Jets, where Darnold was, do we think the Jets would be going to their 2nd Super Bowl because of the great Mahomes? not a chance. Mahomes is really good, but not that much better than some of the other young guns, Baker included....
 

thavoice

Well-known member
PH is more gifted than TB12.
He will not need all those weapons, just some.

They may not on 14-15 games each year but 11-12 is a certainty.
 

14Red

Well-known member
I have an unpopular opinion:

Anyone who thinks that Mahomes is head and shoulders above all the other young QBs is wrong. He is excellent and very gifted, but he is also very lucky to be surrounded by special guys like Kelce, Hill, and the rest of the cast. And most importantly, he has Andy Reid, the best offensive mind going. Their offensive sets and play calling is just plain better than the rest. Add that to all the talent, and you have an unstoppable offense.

I think if you took Deshaun Watson and plunked him into Mahomes spot, the results would be the same. Possibly also a few of the other young QBs. Situation has a lot to do with Mahomes success. If Mahomes had been drafted by the Jets, where Darnold was, do we think the Jets would be going to their 2nd Super Bowl because of the great Mahomes? not a chance. Mahomes is really good, but not that much better than some of the other young guns, Baker included....
I can't completely disagree with this statement. I do feel PM is very good and creating extra time to make plays that I'm not sure others can. I do disagree on Baker. I think he's not the leader you need in a pro QB, he's good and he can be an adequate starter, but I don't know that he's going to lead the Browns to a deep playoff run.
I totally agree the situation has everything to do with success. Most QB's get drafted onto bad teams who have lots of holes to fill. PM didn't have that, he started with a playoff team, a great coach and mentor in QB Alex Smith.
 

CoachHoversten

Active member
I can't completely disagree with this statement. I do feel PM is very good and creating extra time to make plays that I'm not sure others can. I do disagree on Baker. I think he's not the leader you need in a pro QB, he's good and he can be an adequate starter, but I don't know that he's going to lead the Browns to a deep playoff run.
I totally agree the situation has everything to do with success. Most QB's get drafted onto bad teams who have lots of holes to fill. PM didn't have that, he started with a playoff team, a great coach and mentor in QB Alex Smith.
Just throwing this out there, you realize the Browns were much closer to beating KC than Buffalo was, and likely will be closer than Tampa will be.

very likely that Cleveland will have played the SB champs closest when the season has ended
 

thavoice

Well-known member
Just throwing this out there, you realize the Browns were much closer to beating KC than Buffalo was, and likely will be closer than Tampa will be.

very likely that Cleveland will have played the SB champs closest when the season has ended
Let us know when the Browns raise the "Almost Made It To The AFC Championship Banner" ceremony is.
 

lotr10

Well-known member
Just throwing this out there, you realize the Browns were much closer to beating KC than Buffalo was, and likely will be closer than Tampa will be.

very likely that Cleveland will have played the SB champs closest when the season has ended
You are aware that transitive properties don't apply in football, particularly professional football?

In December, KC was lucky to get out of Miami with a 33 - 27 win. Tua threw for over 300 yards in that game and Mahomes threw 3INT's. A couple of weeks later Buffalo beat Miami 56 - 28 in a game that Miami needed to win to make the playoffs and the Bills played Allen and most of their starters for only one half. Going by these two games I should have been confident that the Bills would take the Chiefs. I wasn't.

IMO there were only three games this season that the Chiefs were fired up to play and that was against Baltimore & Tampa in the early season and Buffalo on Sunday. And after going up on Tampa big time in the 1st quarter KC put it on cruise control. The rest of the season the Chiefs did the minimum to get by. And such is their talent advantage that they ended up 14 - 2 as a result.
 

wolves82

Well-known member
PH is more gifted than TB12.
He will not need all those weapons, just some.

They may not on 14-15 games each year but 11-12 is a certainty.
I assume PH is Pat Mahomes?

Yes Mahomes is more physically gifted than Brady. He may also have equal field vision. He is close on accuracy. He isn't there on decision-making yet, but that may come with experience. So is he a great QB? Yes.

But I'll stand by my post that he isn't head and shoulders above Watson, Allen and some of the others. As I said, swap him and Darnold in the draft, what happens? Swap him and Josh Rosen or Mayfield in the draft, what happens? He'd be just another gifted and potentially good QB.
 

14Red

Well-known member
Just throwing this out there, you realize the Browns were much closer to beating KC than Buffalo was, and likely will be closer than Tampa will be.

very likely that Cleveland will have played the SB champs closest when the season has ended
It's always dangerous comparing different days, different games, different conditions. But yes, this could very well be. I just feel Baker has a ceiling and this may have been it. The Browns identity is running the ball and defense. Baker's identity is throwing it around. Is there going to be issues with that moving forward?
 

clarkgriswold

Well-known member
It's always dangerous comparing different days, different games, different conditions. But yes, this could very well be. I just feel Baker has a ceiling and this may have been it. The Browns identity is running the ball and defense. Baker's identity is throwing it around. Is there going to be issues with that moving forward?
When did the Browns last have the type of defense to establish an "identity"?
 

thavoice

Well-known member
Texans hired their man.


Should the NFL allow more access to coaches still in the playoffs?
And should you be able to hire one, such as Bienenmy?
I think they are man enough to be able to accept a job, and still coach until they are beat out, right?
 

14Red

Well-known member
When did the Browns last have the type of defense to establish an "identity"?
I think the resurgence of Myles Garrett has turned that defense around. Linebackers are solid. I believe they had a couple of expected starters out of the secondary all season too. I know to beat KC you have to score, but if you have a championship defense, you can't waste time.

I'm guessing the access to Bienemy wasn't the reason he wasn't hired. These guys have agents and he's been around long enough you know the score. There is just something about him that keeps him from getting hired for an HC job. And of course we'll never hear that because the narrative is he should be an HC...just because--wink, wink...
 

clarkgriswold

Well-known member
I think the resurgence of Myles Garrett has turned that defense around. Linebackers are solid. I believe they had a couple of expected starters out of the secondary all season too. I know to beat KC you have to score, but if you have a championship defense, you can't waste time.

I'm guessing the access to Bienemy wasn't the reason he wasn't hired. These guys have agents and he's been around long enough you know the score. There is just something about him that keeps him from getting hired for an HC job. And of course we'll never hear that because the narrative is he should be an HC...just because--wink, wink...
I think it's the identity they hope for but are far from achieving.

I didn't see anything on the field indicating the linebackers were anything but well below average. When the team is discussed the universal shortcoming referenced is the linebacking crew. PFF ranked them the number 31 LB crew in the league before the season. Goodson was okay, Takitaki was a ghost for 13 or 14 games, Wilson was hurt then a step behind, Phillips was learning on the job after being picked too early and Smith is a 100 years old. If there's any position the draft needs to address it is LB.

I think the DL is is decent shape. The corners are decent when Ward can stay on the field. Harrison came around and if Delpit can return healthy I think the safeties will be decent. Use the draft and free agency to bolster the linebackers and get healthy and I think the defense can be good.
 

14Red

Well-known member
I think it's the identity they hope for but are far from achieving.

I didn't see anything on the field indicating the linebackers were anything but well below average. When the team is discussed the universal shortcoming referenced is the linebacking crew. PFF ranked them the number 31 LB crew in the league before the season. Goodson was okay, Takitaki was a ghost for 13 or 14 games, Wilson was hurt then a step behind, Phillips was learning on the job after being picked too early and Smith is a 100 years old. If there's any position the draft needs to address it is LB.

I think the DL is is decent shape. The corners are decent when Ward can stay on the field. Harrison came around and if Delpit can return healthy I think the safeties will be decent. Use the draft and free agency to bolster the linebackers and get healthy and I think the defense can be good.
So you're saying the team is closer or wants to mimic a Mahomes / KC type team rather than a defense/ run the ball team? To me, and I'm not a Browns fan so I don't see them all the time, I don't think Baker's the guy. I think the more you allow him to freelance and throw it around, the more mistakes he'll make. The Browns have a GREAT running game and I don't think they use it enough. But we'll see.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
So you're saying the team is closer or wants to mimic a Mahomes / KC type team rather than a defense/ run the ball team? To me, and I'm not a Browns fan so I don't see them all the time, I don't think Baker's the guy. I think the more you allow him to freelance and throw it around, the more mistakes he'll make. The Browns have a GREAT running game and I don't think they use it enough. But we'll see.
To be honest, the Browns are very close and if they improve their defense they are at the top of the second tier just below KC.

What gives them an advantage in that tier below KC is their running game ability. That alone allows them the best chance to be able to handle the Chefs.

Baker can get them to the next level if they stay to their roots of being able to run the football effectively enough to keep PH off the field. Teams try to get into a track meet with them, and you cannot do that.
Balt can run it, no doubt, but at this point in time their passing game is not as effective at BM and the Clowns.
 

Stirred not Shaken

Well-known member
Both Mahomes and Brady were drafted into very good organizations. However you put Mahomes on the Bengals or Jets current teams they might win between 6 - 8 games. Put Brady on either team he may not even have survived the year and I doubt their record would have been any different.
 

thavoice

Well-known member
Both Mahomes and Brady were drafted into very good organizations. However you put Mahomes on the Bengals or Jets current teams they might win between 6 - 8 games. Put Brady on either team he may not even have survived the year and I doubt their record would have been any different.
It would be interesting to look at the past HoF QB's, and the next expected crop of HoF QB's, and compare what sort of team they had the 5 previous seasons when they were drafted and brought in.

Off the top of my head:
Brees: Saints? sucked.
Roethlisburger (think he is HoF, maybe fringe): good organization prior.
Rodgers: Good with Favre.
Brady: Good.
Mahomes: Good.
Manning: Colts previous?
Rivers (maybe):
Manning (Maybe): Giants?
Wilson: Seahwawks?


How many great QBs out there, with great success, came to organizations in shambles?
Current crop:
Baker: Train wreck
Darnold: Same.
Allen: Bad.
Tua:
Watson:
Burrow: Train wreck.


Jackson: Ravens have been stout.

I have always been a 'right place, right time' type of guy with opportunity in life, and sports.
 

lotr10

Well-known member
It would be interesting to look at the past HoF QB's, and the next expected crop of HoF QB's, and compare what sort of team they had the 5 previous seasons when they were drafted and brought in.

Off the top of my head:
Brees: Saints? sucked.
Roethlisburger (think he is HoF, maybe fringe): good organization prior.
Rodgers: Good with Favre.
Brady: Good.
Mahomes: Good.
Manning: Colts previous?
Rivers (maybe):
Manning (Maybe): Giants?
Wilson: Seahwawks?


How many great QBs out there, with great success, came to organizations in shambles?
Current crop:
Baker: Train wreck
Darnold: Same.
Allen: Bad.
Tua:
Watson:
Burrow: Train wreck.


Jackson: Ravens have been stout.

I have always been a 'right place, right time' type of guy with opportunity in life, and sports.
My only quibble would be that while the Bills as a franchise were bad when Allen got there in 2018 the offense was even worse and could be classified as a train wreck. Other then Allen only one starter from that offense is left - Tackle Dion Dawkins. The rest are gone with most not even in the NFL anymore.

I actually believe that while both guys had it bad, Darnold actually had a better situation in 2018 then Allen had.

As an aside, and given that both Allen & Baker were thrust into terrible situations as rookies, their emergence into the upper echelons of QB's is impressive. There is no doubt that Mahomes & Jackson started out with much better situations. I also believe that Tua & Herbert benefited from better situations then either Allen or Baker. Burrow however can match Allen & Bakers tough situations.

So what does this mean in the long run? I think that by first surviving and then thriving Allen & Baker are here for the long haul. Sink or swim may have ruined Darnold & Rosen (remember him) but it's made Allen & Baker stronger and if he survives will make Burrow stronger to.
 

clarkgriswold

Well-known member
So you're saying the team is closer or wants to mimic a Mahomes / KC type team rather than a defense/ run the ball team? To me, and I'm not a Browns fan so I don't see them all the time, I don't think Baker's the guy. I think the more you allow him to freelance and throw it around, the more mistakes he'll make. The Browns have a GREAT running game and I don't think they use it enough. But we'll see.
Not at all. I think they want to be a running team with a strong defense. They're half way there in that they are a running team. However, their defense, especially their LB's, are suspect.
 

14Red

Well-known member
My only quibble would be that while the Bills as a franchise were bad when Allen got there in 2018 the offense was even worse and could be classified as a train wreck. Other then Allen only one starter from that offense is left - Tackle Dion Dawkins. The rest are gone with most not even in the NFL anymore.

I actually believe that while both guys had it bad, Darnold actually had a better situation in 2018 then Allen had.

As an aside, and given that both Allen & Baker were thrust into terrible situations as rookies, their emergence into the upper echelons of QB's is impressive. There is no doubt that Mahomes & Jackson started out with much better situations. I also believe that Tua & Herbert benefited from better situations then either Allen or Baker. Burrow however can match Allen & Bakers tough situations.

So what does this mean in the long run? I think that by first surviving and then thriving Allen & Baker are here for the long haul. Sink or swim may have ruined Darnold & Rosen (remember him) but it's made Allen & Baker stronger and if he survives will make Burrow stronger to.
As Lee Corso would say...not so fast my friend. The Bills and Browns were two teams who "moved up" this year. Some of that is expected because the bad teams draft first, etc. etc...and the other factor that make the NFL churn is the strength of schedule. Browns played a 3rd place schedule, the Bills played a second place schedule and the first place team (New England) lost their franchise QB. Point being, let's let this play out another season or two before we proclaim either Allen or Baker as upper echelon QB's. They are good solid QB's right now, but their is still a long way to go. I think next season is HUGE for Baker. Two years ago Jimmy G and Jared Goff were proclaimed as the next great QB's and look where they are at now.
 

lotr10

Well-known member
As Lee Corso would say...not so fast my friend. The Bills and Browns were two teams who "moved up" this year. Some of that is expected because the bad teams draft first, etc. etc...and the other factor that make the NFL churn is the strength of schedule. Browns played a 3rd place schedule, the Bills played a second place schedule and the first place team (New England) lost their franchise QB. Point being, let's let this play out another season or two before we proclaim either Allen or Baker as upper echelon QB's. They are good solid QB's right now, but their is still a long way to go. I think next season is HUGE for Baker. Two years ago Jimmy G and Jared Goff were proclaimed as the next great QB's and look where they are at now.
The Bills played a very hard schedule this season which included the NFC west. And while the Pats were down Miami was a much better team then expected.

As for QB's I don't know as much about Mayfield as I do Allen but Baker's stats were solid and he seems to fit the Browns style of play very well.

As for Allen, I'm very confident that he's a top 5 QB. He has improved every season since entering the NFL and I expect him to get better next year. Even Allen's detractors admitted that he had the highest upside of the 2018 QB class. IMO Allen's last two seasons have established that his plateau is in fact the upside these people talked about.

This year Allen demonstrated that he had the mental acuity to play at an elite level of QB. His physical tools have always been elite. IMO I would take Allen over Watson and only Mahomes is a superior QB in the under 30 group.

Sure, both Allen & Mayfield could regress but that is far less likely then both QB's continuing to improve next season.
 

clarkgriswold

Well-known member
JJ Watt released by the Texans. Off to the Steelers to play with his brothers?

Man, has that franchise taken the express lane to mediocrity. If they trade Watson they will have lost both cornerstones of the franchise.
 

Auggie

Well-known member
JJ Watt will have choices, I am not sure if $s will be the be all end all as he was well compensated over his last contract. I am thinking comfort level with the new team, location, and most importantly the ability to chase a ring will be the criterion. The Packers make a lot of sense but don't rule a team like the Buccaneers who could be building a NBA like team of vets on club friendly deals chasing rings in the sun with no state income tax. Could be the Steelers too but system and an aging QB that is on his last breath might be too much to over come to play alongside little brother.
 

OldSoulon

Well-known member
JJ Watt will have choices, I am not sure if $s will be the be all end all as he was well compensated over his last contract. I am thinking comfort level with the new team, location, and most importantly the ability to chase a ring will be the criterion. The Packers make a lot of sense but don't rule a team like the Buccaneers who could be building a NBA like team of vets on club friendly deals chasing rings in the sun with no state income tax. Could be the Steelers too but system and an aging QB that is on his last breath might be too much to over come to play alongside little brother.
The question with him is can he stay on the field?
 
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