'Everybody benefits': Loveland teacher pushes for track and field expansion

[Yappi]

Jim Vanatsky has been around track and field his entire life. He played football and ran track at Beavercreek High School before playing football at the University of Cincinnati.

After obtaining his master's degree in sports administration from Georgia Southern, he coached football and track in Florida before returning to Cincinnati. Most recently, Vanatsky was the head track coach at Loveland for 11 years before becoming an assistant at Moeller. He is also a world history and American government teacher at Loveland.

For the past decade, his background has led him to advocate for track and field expansion and a fair state championship.

MSN

 

[KingHorn419]

Wish we could just carry over the same exact divisions from basketball season and just take away the competitive balance numbers. Almost seems like to simple of an answer.

 

[psycho_dad]

Broken record, but simply do the divisions in 3rds like they do now and then divide the top division in half. Or D4 = 1-149, D3 = 150 - 299, D2 = 300 - 599, D1 - 600 and up. Seems like we first have to get enough teams to participate at the District level and force the OHSAA to add the 4th division.

 

[KingHorn419]

Broken record, but simply do the divisions in 3rds like they do now and then divide the top division in half. Or D4 = 1-149, D3 = 150 - 299, D2 = 300 - 599, D1 - 600 and up. Seems like we first have to get enough teams to participate at the District level and force the OHSAA to add the 4th division.

Also need the OHSAA to start counting just 1 individual as a team.

 

[psycho_dad]

Also need the OHSAA to start counting just 1 individual as a team.

That's not going to happen. 5 is legit, but they have set 9 as the number. Let's just get teams of 9 there first and worry about that. There are plenty of teams that compete at meets during the season and then do not show at the District. Don't expect the OHSAA to care about participation more than each individual school does. It doesn't seem like it's a big issue with small D3 schools not fielding teams. How small does a school need to be where 9 kids is a hardship to get out?

 

[JAVMAN83]

The obvious elephant in the room is:

If they don't count one individual as a team, then why give out a team trophy to an individual who won the team trophy by themself if they are the only representative at the state meet?

I already know the shpeel, so no need to answer. Just pointing out a reason in faulty logic on OHSAA's part. What's the difference in having only one individual at the state meet or one individual from a school at a smaller meet. That individual is representing the school, regardless of their numbers. By OHSAA acknowledging that one person can earn a team trophy, then by extension it makes sense that one person is a team.

 

[CC Track Fan]

The obvious elephant in the room is:

If they don't count one individual as a team, then why give out a team trophy to an individual who won the team trophy by themself if they are the only representative at the state meet?

I already know the shpeel, so no need to answer. Just pointing out a reason in faulty logic on OHSAA's part. What's the difference in having only one individual at the state meet or one individual from a school at a smaller meet. That individual is representing the school, regardless of their numbers. By OHSAA acknowledging that one person can earn a team trophy, then by extension it makes sense that one person is a team.

I always felt that if that the OHSAA says need 9 to be a team then if a school doesn't enter 9 at district meet then they do not score team points. Treat it like CC if in top 4 they get to move on but don't count in the team scoring. This would create an incentive for schools to enter 9.

Side note IMO the number should be 4 to be counted as a team.

 

[JAVMAN83]

I always felt that if that the OHSAA says need 9 to be a team then if a school doesn't enter 9 at district meet then they do not score team points. Treat it like CC if in top 4 they get to move on but don't count in the team scoring. This would create an incentive for schools to enter 9.

Side note IMO the number should be 4 to be counted as a team.

I would have no problem with that.

 

[Newton's Third]

Another problem in past years that may still be an issue is that large city schools (Columbus & Cleveland for example), pay their track coaches for service through the conference meet. Many coaches/teams end their season there. Unless they have an outstanding individual and in this case 9 individuals, there is no incentive to continue the season beyond the conference meet. This not only reduces the count of "teams" overall, but pushes many schools in the 300 range enrollment into D1 and out of their more equitable D2.

 

[JAVMAN83]

Another problem in past years that may still be an issue is that large city schools (Columbus & Cleveland for example), pay their track coaches for service through the conference meet. Many coaches/teams end their season there. Unless they have an outstanding individual and in this case 9 individuals, there is no incentive to continue the season beyond the conference meet. This not only reduces the count of "teams" overall, but pushes many schools in the 300 range enrollment into D1 and out of their more equitable D2.

Thanks for the info. I was never paid just through a conference meet. It was always for a season, and for me, that season always ended up in the state meet, regardless of whether I had an athlete there or not. Crazy system.

 

[CedarBuck92]

Thanks for the info. I was never paid just through a conference meet. It was always for a season, and for me, that season always ended up in the state meet, regardless of whether I had an athlete there or not. Crazy system.

Our school always paid coaches half midway through the season and the other half after all equipment was turned in. So when the last athlete is actually done competing

 

[JAVMAN83]

Our school always paid coaches half midway through the season and the other half after all equipment was turned in. So when the last athlete is actually done competing

HS I coached at were always paid at end of season, whenever that happened. Would've been nice with a mid-season check. College was always a monthly check, though. No college coach would ever do so differently.

 

[psycho_dad]

We choose how we are paid. Every other week, One lump sum at the end, and I think there is a choice of mid season and end of season, but I have always done every other week, so I'm not 100% there is the 3rd choice. I'm sure of one lump at the end. Regardless, I find it very hard to believe that anyone is doing it for the money. I've never once signed my contract and looked at the dollar amount and thought anything about it. I know for a fact I have never looked at the dates of the contract. I have no idea when it starts or when it ends. It's absurd to me to think that someone would not see it through to the District meet for the kids. Then on to the Regional and State if someone qualified. It is more absurd to think that an AD, Principal, SI and BOE would not figure it out. Not going to the District is something that could happen once, but never again.

 

[CedarBuck92]

HS I coached at were always paid at end of season, whenever that happened. Would've been nice with a mid-season check. College was always a monthly check, though. No college coach would ever do so differently.

When you get to the college level (especially larger college) it would become a full time job, so of course you aren't going to accept only 1 or 2 checks a year.

 

[JAVMAN83]

When you get to the college level (especially larger college) it would become a full time job, so of course you aren't going to accept only 1 or 2 checks a year.

Many college coaches are part time or seasonal only at the college level, especially at everything below D1

 

[Mr. Slippery]

We choose how we are paid. Every other week, One lump sum at the end, and I think there is a choice of mid season and end of season, but I have always done every other week, so I'm not 100% there is the 3rd choice. I'm sure of one lump at the end. Regardless, I find it very hard to believe that anyone is doing it for the money. I've never once signed my contract and looked at the dollar amount and thought anything about it. I know for a fact I have never looked at the dates of the contract. I have no idea when it starts or when it ends. It's absurd to me to think that someone would not see it through to the District meet for the kids. Then on to the Regional and State if someone qualified. It is more absurd to think that an AD, Principal, SI and BOE would not figure it out. Not going to the District is something that could happen once, but never again.

You're lucky. Some districts have very stringent policies for how they pay. I know of a local swimming coach who was being paid a lump sum at the end of the season because he was not a district employee. If he was a teacher or similar district employee, his pay would've been spread amongst his regular paychecks. Something changed in said swimming coach's life where he couldn't afford to wait for the lump sum to be paid, so before the next season began, he asked if he could be paid the stipend as if he were a district employee. The district would not go against its policy, and he had no choice but to resign.

When I finally became a paid coach (volunteered for 6 years), I would be paid a lump sum sometime after the season ended, and it could vary wildly as to when that "sometime" would be. When I did things like sell and take tickets at sporting events or keep the scorebook for basketball, I would usually be paid by halftime in cash. Scorebook keeper from a public school up the road said the district would pay him with a check after the season ended, taxes withheld.

 

[yj_runfan]

We choose how we are paid. Every other week, One lump sum at the end, and I think there is a choice of mid season and end of season, but I have always done every other week, so I'm not 100% there is the 3rd choice. I'm sure of one lump at the end. Regardless, I find it very hard to believe that anyone is doing it for the money. I've never once signed my contract and looked at the dollar amount and thought anything about it. I know for a fact I have never looked at the dates of the contract. I have no idea when it starts or when it ends. It's absurd to me to think that someone would not see it through to the District meet for the kids. Then on to the Regional and State if someone qualified. It is more absurd to think that an AD, Principal, SI and BOE would not figure it out. Not going to the District is something that could happen once, but never again.

As a former BOE member I can assure you we would not have any idea something like this happened unless it was brought to our attention. You should investigate the role and function of the BOE if you think they should be checking up on the week to week performance of every sports coach in the district. If anything, I would have held the AD mostly responsible.

 

[psycho_dad]

As a former BOE member I can assure you we would not have any idea something like this happened unless it was brought to our attention. You should investigate the role and function of the BOE if you think they should be checking up on the week to week performance of every sports coach in the district. If anything, I would have held the AD mostly responsible.

" It is more absurd to think that an AD, Principal, SI and BOE would not figure it out." Sorry, My bad. I did not realize that when putting a list together that putting the BOE at the end of the list meant that it implied they are the most responsible and putting the AD at the front of the list meant I thought the AD was the least responsible. I forgot to put the Treasurer in there too. I would hope that someone in the chain from the AD (At the front) to the BOE would discover that their athletic teams were not finishing out the season. I would hope that someone on the BOE would be interested enough in the kids and school that they might ask how the baseball team did. How the softball team did. Eventually making it to the Track and Field teams. I'm sure most of them are just in it for the money though and really could care less about the kids in the district.

I'm well aware of what the BOE does. I assure you that someone on our BOE would have an idea something like that was happening.

 

[Running Man 101]

You're lucky. Some districts have very stringent policies for how they pay. I know of a local swimming coach who was being paid a lump sum at the end of the season because he was not a district employee. If he was a teacher or similar district employee, his pay would've been spread amongst his regular paychecks. Something changed in said swimming coach's life where he couldn't afford to wait for the lump sum to be paid, so before the next season began, he asked if he could be paid the stipend as if he were a district employee. The district would not go against its policy, and he had no choice but to resign.

When I finally became a paid coach (volunteered for 6 years), I would be paid a lump sum sometime after the season ended, and it could vary wildly as to when that "sometime" would be. When I did things like sell and take tickets at sporting events or keep the scorebook for basketball, I would usually be paid by halftime in cash. Scorebook keeper from a public school up the road said the district would pay him with a check after the season ended, taxes withheld.

Our school system every coach signs a supplemental contract for a specific season (i.e. new contract every year in every sports). You get paid twice, once about 75% of the way thru for the first 50% and 2nd payment is usually mid-June. Last year they started a bonus system for coaching kids beyond Districts.

There might be some asst coaches who do it for the money, but certainly not a HC. There is a huge difference in coaches salaries from school to school.

 

[yj_runfan]

" It is more absurd to think that an AD, Principal, SI and BOE would not figure it out." Sorry, My bad. I did not realize that when putting a list together that putting the BOE at the end of the list meant that it implied they are the most responsible and putting the AD at the front of the list meant I thought the AD was the least responsible. I forgot to put the Treasurer in there too. I would hope that someone in the chain from the AD (At the front) to the BOE would discover that their athletic teams were not finishing out the season. I would hope that someone on the BOE would be interested enough in the kids and school that they might ask how the baseball team did. How the softball team did. Eventually making it to the Track and Field teams. I'm sure most of them are just in it for the money though and really could care less about the kids in the district.

I'm well aware of what the BOE does. I assure you that someone on our BOE would have an idea something like that was happening.

I’m glad you are happy with a micro-managing BOE. Do they pick the menu for the lunch room?

 

[mathking]

Another problem in past years that may still be an issue is that large city schools (Columbus & Cleveland for example), pay their track coaches for service through the conference meet. Many coaches/teams end their season there. Unless they have an outstanding individual and in this case 9 individuals, there is no incentive to continue the season beyond the conference meet. This not only reduces the count of "teams" overall, but pushes many schools in the 300 range enrollment into D1 and out of their more equitable D2.

I have been watching this thread and wondering how many coaches actually do this? I don’t work in Columbus City Schools, but my wife does. And my kids are graduates. My son ran XC and TF and competed in the district meet every year he ran. From watching my son‘s meets and the friendships I have with coaches from the city league, I have to wonder how often coaches deciding not to compete at the district meet actually happens. No examples spring to mind. I do sometimes hear complaints from other coaches that City League schools that had seven or eight kids early in the season only have three or four for the XC district meet. To which I generally reply with specific examples from my son’s or my friends‘ experiences and explain that most of the complaining don’t have a frame of reference to understand the difficulties involved.

 

[yj_runfan]

My oldest son’s first track coach would only let kids compete at district if he felt they had a chance of advancing. The assistant coaches hated his policy.

 

[Newton's Third]

I have been watching this thread and wondering how many coaches actually do this? I don’t work in Columbus City Schools, but my wife does. And my kids are graduates. My son ran XC and TF and competed in the district meet every year he ran. From watching my son‘s meets and the friendships I have with coaches from the city league, I have to wonder how often coaches deciding not to compete at the district meet actually happens. No examples spring to mind. I do sometimes hear complaints from other coaches that City League schools that had seven or eight kids early in the season only have three or four for the XC district meet. To which I generally reply with specific examples from my son’s or my friends‘ experiences and explain that most of the complaining don’t have a frame of reference to understand the difficulties involved.

My source was a track coach in Columbus City about 10 years ago. He said the contracts went through conference which allowed teams to avoid prolonging the season unless they had district and beyond caliber athletes. As yj said, many thought they are doing a service to those that were not strong in their respective events and teams dwindled to a handful, less than 9, in most cases. The coach I spoke with said that at the time only about 5 schools entered their entire team at the district meet.

This coach was at a now closed high school. I have no way of knowing if what he said was factual and if so, does the policy remain today? He was speaking of track, not cross country.

I was not complaining, just sharing another potential glitch in the OHSAA policy of counting teams for divisional purposes.

 

[JAVMAN83]

My oldest son’s first track coach would only let kids compete at district if he felt they had a chance of advancing. The assistant coaches hated his policy.

You might be surprised that a lot of countries operate that way when it comes to entering Olympic participants. Britain is notorious for only entering Olympic contestants based on their being competitive towards a medal.

 

[KingHorn419]

My oldest son’s first track coach would only let kids compete at district if he felt they had a chance of advancing. The assistant coaches hated his policy.

So much for gaining experience.

All those lower-seed basketball, baseball, football etc. teams should just go home then and not even attempt the playoffs.

 

[yj_runfan]

So much for gaining experience.

All those lower-seed basketball, baseball, football etc. teams should just go home then and not even attempt the playoffs.

That was what infuriated our assistant coaches.

 

[Ericles]

You're lucky. Some districts have very stringent policies for how they pay. I know of a local swimming coach who was being paid a lump sum at the end of the season because he was not a district employee. If he was a teacher or similar district employee, his pay would've been spread amongst his regular paychecks. Something changed in said swimming coach's life where he couldn't afford to wait for the lump sum to be paid, so before the next season began, he asked if he could be paid the stipend as if he were a district employee. The district would not go against its policy, and he had no choice but to resign.

When I finally became a paid coach (volunteered for 6 years), I would be paid a lump sum sometime after the season ended, and it could vary wildly as to when that "sometime" would be. When I did things like sell and take tickets at sporting events or keep the scorebook for basketball, I would usually be paid by halftime in cash. Scorebook keeper from a public school up the road said the district would pay him with a check after the season ended, taxes withheld.

I am one of those people. The rules changed back in 2012 or 2013 to where everything started to be processed through payroll, which means it's subjected to taxes and other deductions. For perspective....if I work all 5 home football games, I basically get paid for 4 of those games after taxes and deductions. If that makes sense.

 

[psycho_dad]

I’m glad you are happy with a micro-managing BOE. Do they pick the menu for the lunch room?

Not sure how you get micromanaging out of any of that. Involved and part of the community. Keeping up on how things at the school is going seems to be something a Board member would do. I'm sure they would want to know how the lunch program is working for the system as well. Just out of curiosity.

 

[psycho_dad]

I find it hard to believe that coaches look to see the dates of their contracts. T

 

[mathking]

I have heard some variation of this story from quite a few people, but I don’t know how true it is, because I haven’t seen any teams that don’t show up at all. But there have been teams with less than nine. I have known new coaches who didn’t know that you need to have 9 compete to count as a team. But I know some CCS coaches who have begged and driven kids themselves to get nine to compete. That presupposes you have nine on the team. My son only had a full team at districts his sophomore year. He would have as a junior but for Covid. His senior year they had four guys, and one quit part way through. On the other hand one of my favorite track memories was his four person team finishing middle of the pack at am invitational.