Enrollment Numbers 2018-2019

PURPLE REIGN

Active member
I assume cost is the biggest reason why minority students aren’t choosing Catholic Grade Schools. You would think if it were feasible, the choice of Lawrence, William, Res, HF vs Oyler, Carson, Whittier would be easy. However, even if those schools have reasonable tuition with aid, it’s still a tough swing for a lot of parents in that area.

I know Elder and the feeder schools are always going to be linked together, but they can’t spend too much time worrying about how they handle their business. Elder needs to focus on what they can control. That focus is better spent on establishing relationships with students at these schools, finding a way to get them interested early.
Agreed, Elder must do better to attract all types of students.
 

EHS 2001

Moderator
I'm making this up as I go along, but here's an idea. The Archdiocese's CISE (Catholic Inner-city Schools Education) Fund supports 8 grade schools. Three of them (Holy Family, Resurrection and St. Lawrence) are in Price Hill and three others (St. Joseph on Ezzard Charles, St. Francis Seraph on Liberty Street and Corryville Catholic on Calhoun Street) are less than 5 miles from Elder. Even St. Boniface in Northside is less than a 15 minute drive away. By some combination of EdChoice vouchers, financial aid, scholarships, work/study, partnering with the Archdiocese education office, tuition, etc. find a way that no graduate of a CISE Fund grade school is ever prevented from attending Elder or Seton for financial reasons.

Beyond that focus the efforts of the Community Service religions classes and community service hours students are required to do build relationships between Elder students and those school/parish communities. Finally, don't be afraid to toot your own horn about the good work Elder students do on a daily/weekly basis.
 

PURPLE REIGN

Active member
So enlighten us with your bold plan to broaden Elder's reach and appeal regarding minority and/or non-feeder students. It's obvious we don't have the insight or forward thinking as you do. Spell it out slowly, step-by-step so you don't lose us.
oskar, I know you were not replying to me, however, here is what I suggested in Oct/Nov of 2018 earlier is this same thread. I realize not all will work and some are basically illegal by the OHSAA...just ideas I had over 5 minutes of thinking about it.

Short-term, Id like to see Elder run the numbers and explore lowering the cost of tuition for ALL students. I wonder how many more students would be willing to pay $10K instead of $14K (or 5K instead of 9K)? Would the reduction in fee's be made up by increased enrollment?

I'd like Elder to be more aggressive (within the rules) and go after more public school (Oyler, OH, West High, Colerain, Taylor, Harrison, Taft, Hughes, Aiken, etc.) students. Get them on campus. Let them see a pep rally, get to know the culture, etc. Sell the school and its attributes better.

I wonder what can be done to help Holy Family, Teresa, William, Dominic, Lawrence, etc. with their numbers? Can these kids play regular season games at Elder? They accept vouchers right? Where are those boys going when they graduate? Why?

Have individual conversations with ALL eligible families. Not just mailing a letter. Prove to them you want their son at Elder. Bottom line ask them what it would take to have their son come to Elder. What do they need to have happen?

Hire more minority teachers, admissions, and coaches from the neighborhood. Find someone from Price Hill who is respected and connected. Speaking Spanish would be a +.

Embrace the neighborhood WAY better. Mass advertise free cookouts and let kids play in the Pit. Market the Elder games and let kids from certain schools in for free. Get them on campus!!! Are we reaching out to the head coaches of local elementary teams and encouraging them to come to the school? I'd go after Taft, Aiken, West High, Hughes, etc. school teams. Can they play an actual game AT Elder? Not sure what the rules are.

Long-term, I'd like to see significant pockets of the west-side be redeveloped and new $200K+ single-family homes be built. The recently developed street in Saylor Park had significant tax incentives and is a perfect example. Who made that work? Make that happen 10X in Westwood, Price Hill, Covedale, Western Hills, etc. I understand the land-locked situation but developers are tearing downs dilapidated homes across the country. Get the city involved and provide incentive for people to want to live on the west-side. The location is great (5 min from downtown/banks/stadiums/highway/FC Cincy) and if you make it safe/desirable, families would love to build a new home there.
 

PURPLE REIGN

Active member
I'm making this up as I go along, but here's an idea. The Archdiocese's CISE (Catholic Inner-city Schools Education) Fund supports 8 grade schools. Three of them (Holy Family, Resurrection and St. Lawrence) are in Price Hill and three others (St. Joseph on Ezzard Charles, St. Francis Seraph on Liberty Street and Corryville Catholic on Calhoun Street) are less than 5 miles from Elder. Even St. Boniface in Northside is less than a 15 minute drive away. By some combination of EdChoice vouchers, financial aid, scholarships, work/study, partnering with the Archdiocese education office, tuition, etc. find a way that no graduate of a CISE Fund grade school is ever prevented from attending Elder or Seton for financial reasons.

Beyond that focus the efforts of the Community Service religions classes and community service hours students are required to do build relationships between Elder students and those school/parish communities. Finally, don't be afraid to toot your own horn about the good work Elder students do on a daily/weekly basis.
Great idea. Who is a point person and influencer at CISE? Hire he or she as a consultant or bring them on full-time.

Identify the coaches of these teams. This should be allowed by the OHSAA (could not do this if its a public team). Free to attend games and all camps for their players.
 

Omar

Well-known member
oskar, I know you were not replying to me, however, here is what I suggested in Oct/Nov of 2018 earlier is this same thread. I realize not all will work and some are basically illegal by the OHSAA...just ideas I had over 5 minutes of thinking about it.

Short-term, Id like to see Elder run the numbers and explore lowering the cost of tuition for ALL students. I wonder how many more students would be willing to pay $10K instead of $14K (or 5K instead of 9K)? Would the reduction in fee's be made up by increased enrollment?

I'd like Elder to be more aggressive (within the rules) and go after more public school (Oyler, OH, West High, Colerain, Taylor, Harrison, Taft, Hughes, Aiken, etc.) students. Get them on campus. Let them see a pep rally, get to know the culture, etc. Sell the school and its attributes better.

I wonder what can be done to help Holy Family, Teresa, William, Dominic, Lawrence, etc. with their numbers? Can these kids play regular season games at Elder? They accept vouchers right? Where are those boys going when they graduate? Why?

Have individual conversations with ALL eligible families. Not just mailing a letter. Prove to them you want their son at Elder. Bottom line ask them what it would take to have their son come to Elder. What do they need to have happen?

Hire more minority teachers, admissions, and coaches from the neighborhood. Find someone from Price Hill who is respected and connected. Speaking Spanish would be a +.

Embrace the neighborhood WAY better. Mass advertise free cookouts and let kids play in the Pit. Market the Elder games and let kids from certain schools in for free. Get them on campus!!! Are we reaching out to the head coaches of local elementary teams and encouraging them to come to the school? I'd go after Taft, Aiken, West High, Hughes, etc. school teams. Can they play an actual game AT Elder? Not sure what the rules are.

Long-term, I'd like to see significant pockets of the west-side be redeveloped and new $200K+ single-family homes be built. The recently developed street in Saylor Park had significant tax incentives and is a perfect example. Who made that work? Make that happen 10X in Westwood, Price Hill, Covedale, Western Hills, etc. I understand the land-locked situation but developers are tearing downs dilapidated homes across the country. Get the city involved and provide incentive for people to want to live on the west-side. The location is great (5 min from downtown/banks/stadiums/highway/FC Cincy) and if you make it safe/desirable, families would love to build a new home there.
I agree with everything, except that last paragraph. Even then I don’t disagree with the premise. However, the redevelopment in those areas is out of Elder’s control. Elder might have SOME degree of influence, but they’re not the ones ultimately calling the shots.
 

OldSchoolPanther

Active member
So enlighten us with your bold plan to broaden Elder's reach and appeal regarding minority and/or non-feeder students. It's obvious we don't have the insight or forward thinking as you do. Spell it out slowly, step-by-step so you don't lose us.
Asked and answered, over 20 times. But for those of you who can't keep up, I'll copy and paste. This is just the tip of the ice-berg. Others have had very good posts in the last hour as well:

* Diverse representation on the Board. Supplement Elder grads that have moved companies through tough change to include representation from more women and especially more minorities. Boards are meant to challenge leaders
* Start hiring minority leaders, coaches, teachers and administrators - this shows the minority population you are serious about being inclusive with them
* Open up invitations to tryouts for the Little Panther teams in all sports to the entire community - and have minority coaches be part of those teams instead of the home-grown and hand picked non sense that happens now
* Tough one, but find a way to cut tuition - if programs aren't providing a boost to enrollment, are they necessary or just things you've always done that is increasing cost? Invest in areas that creating an enrollment ROI
* Use the Fitness Center as a recruiting tool. Have open houses, show it off, let the neighborhood middle school and high school kids use it for free under supervision a couple hours each week
* Let some kids attend your camps for free. They are littered with west side feeder kids. Start marketing these events to the neighborhood at reduced rates or pieces for free
 

OldSchoolPanther

Active member
1 big HOWEVER that I will add to all of this.

It really doesn't matter what we think, it matters what the administration will do.

And none of this stuff is currently being done (not just my ideas, but your ideas too). Don't you ever ask yourself why? Various posters have just thrown out a whole bunch of great ideas, and these ideas have been floated for years.

What is taking so long?
 
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PURPLE REIGN

Active member
1 big HOWEVER that I will add to all of this.

It really doesn't matter what we think, it matters what the administration will do.

And none of this stuff is currently being done. Don't you ever ask yourself why? Various posters have just thrown out a whole bunch of great ideas, and these ideas have been floated for years.

What is taking so long?
No one on this forum is privy to the actual conversations taking place by the administration. For all we know, they have explored some, all, or none of these ideas. Perhaps they have tried and been shot down by the archdiocese or its breaking a OHSAA rule. I dont know.

What I do know, is that it is NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE TRYING TO KEEP A PUBLIC SCHOOL KID FROM TAKING THE SPOT ON A TEAM FROM A LEGACY KID.

These coaches and athletic director do not care what grade school you came from and who you know.
 
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JusticeLeague3

New member
I used to think that they didnt care where you came from, but I've seen way to many times multiple instances where they kept and/or played kids based upon where they were from to know better. There are always politics and money involved now due to costs. It's not fair, but it's life. And it happens all across the GCL, not just Elder.
 

Omar

Well-known member
No one on this bored is privy to the actual conversations taking place by the administration. For all we know, they have explored some, all, or none of these ideas. Perhaps they have tried and been shot down by the archdiocese or its breaking a OHSAA rule. I dont know.

What I do know, is that it is NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE TRYING TO KEEP A PUBLIC SCHOOL KID FROM TAKING THE SPOT ON A TEAM FROM A LEGACY KID.

These coaches and athletic director do not care what grade school you came from and who you know.
This is where Trey and I differ. I do not believe Elder is conscientiously refusing to take “non legacy” CPS kids for fear they’ll displace legacy kids. I simply think these “non legacy” kids aren’t interested, but Elder needs to work harder to change that. That’s why I get irritated being lumped in with him, like I’m some kind of “Elder Truther.” There is no grand conspiracy or Illuminati running Elder from the shadows to the benefit of a few people. Anyone who really believes that is delusional or deliberately ignorant.
 

OldSchoolPanther

Active member
I used to think that they didnt care where you came from, but I've seen way to many times multiple instances where they kept and/or played kids based upon where they were from to know better. There are always politics and money involved now due to costs. It's not fair, but it's life. And it happens all across the GCL, not just Elder.
I think anyone paying attention over the past 5-10 years has had this thought (we've all heard it). Most don't care enough to bring it up. You're right, it's life, but at the same time, it's also hurting some (not all) aspect of performance and success.
 

Omar

Well-known member
I used to think that they didnt care where you came from, but I've seen way to many times multiple instances where they kept and/or played kids based upon where they were from to know better. There are always politics and money involved now due to costs. It's not fair, but it's life. And it happens all across the GCL, not just Elder.
I don’t think they’re cutting or benching kids that are clearly better in favor of the legacy kids. Like you said, there’s politics at all of these GCL schools. That happens when you have multiple generations of alumni. I’m sure having that recognizable last name helps when the competition is close, it would be foolish to think it doesn’t.

The only major example of favoritism across the GCL I can think of is Crable starting at qb ahead of McVittie at Moeller. I’m sure there’s other instances, but that’s the only one I can think of where there’s was a tangible negative impact on the season.
 

PURPLE REIGN

Active member
I used to think that they didnt care where you came from, but I've seen way to many times multiple instances where they kept and/or played kids based upon where they were from to know better. There are always politics and money involved now due to costs. It's not fair, but it's life. And it happens all across the GCL, not just Elder.
Some of this is true. Happens on EVERY TEAM from grade school to the pro's. Everyone has an opinion. But unless you are at practice or at tryouts how does anyone really know?

Some of this is often sour grapes from jealous people who dont like it when Johnny is not the QB or doesn't make the team.
 

OldSchoolPanther

Active member
This is where Trey and I differ. I do not believe Elder is conscientiously refusing to take “non legacy” CPS kids for fear they’ll displace legacy kids. I simply think these “non legacy” kids aren’t interested, but Elder needs to work harder to change that. That’s why I get irritated being lumped in with him, like I’m some kind of “Elder Truther.” There is no grand conspiracy or Illuminati running Elder from the shadows to the benefit of a few people. Anyone who really believes that is delusional or deliberately ignorant.
Then why aren't they trying to get these kids?

Yes, some of it may be handcuffed by the Archdiocese, but there's zero chance every idea is squashed by them. In fact, I'm guessing they don't even have to get their permission most of the time for some of these ideas.
 

PURPLE REIGN

Active member
Then why aren't they trying to get these kids?
I am under the understanding the perspective public school student must make contact with Elder first. Elder is not allowed to specifically target/market to public school students. This is what Moe received a OHSAA slap on the wrist for a decade ago.

They may already be trying, but the results suggest otherwise. They should do better bending the rules and try a few of the suggestions. But again, I am not in the room when these type of conversations are taking place.
 

Omar

Well-known member
I am under the understanding the perspective public school student must make contact with Elder first. Elder is not allowed to specifically target/market to public school students. This is what Moe received a OHSAA slap on the wrist for a decade ago.

They may already be trying, but the results suggest otherwise. They should do better bending the rules and try a few of the suggestions. But again, I am not in the room when these type of conversations are taking place.
I don’t think they’re allowed to target specific kids. I do believe they can send out mass forms of communication.
 

oskar

Active member
I appreciate the thoughtful responses. What I having problems with in reading the last several pages of posts is the constant bickering. I believe many of the ideas presented here are very good and doable to varying degrees. OSP, you need to get rid of the chip on your shoulder, butt hurt, it's not fair attitude. Rarely are things exactly perfect in the same proportions for everyone everywhere. There is no conspiracy, it's just life.

From reading everyone's posts it appears to me that there is probably at least a 90% agreement among everyone on here, yet most of the time spent going back and forth is useless bickering. Build on that common ground. Going back and forth on a message board accomplishes little when all this time and energy is spent bickering over points that all involved largely agree. Email your ideas to Kurt. Call Kurt. I have close family ties to the Board of Directors and the two biggest challenges facing Elder anytime the subject came up over the last decade plus is the cost of tuition and enrollment numbers. While the school may not act as quickly as we would like, these challenges are not lost or being ignored. Elder is well aware that the numbers will no longer come from traditional sources.
 

Omar

Well-known member
I appreciate the thoughtful responses. What I having problems with in reading the last several pages of posts is the constant bickering. I believe many of the ideas presented here are very good and doable to varying degrees. OSP, you need to get rid of the chip on your shoulder, butt hurt, it's not fair attitude. Rarely are things exactly perfect in the same proportions for everyone everywhere. There is no conspiracy, it's just life.

From reading everyone's posts it appears to me that there is probably at least a 90% agreement among everyone on here, yet most of the time spent going back and forth is useless bickering. Build on that common ground. Going back and forth on a message board accomplishes little when all this time and energy is spent bickering over points that all involved largely agree. Email your ideas to Kurt. Call Kurt. I have close family ties to the Board of Directors and the two biggest challenges facing Elder anytime the subject came up over the last decade plus is the cost of tuition and enrollment numbers. While the school may not act as quickly as we would like, these challenges are not lost or being ignored. Elder is well aware that the numbers will no longer come from traditional sources.
I think it’s lost on ppl like OSP, that big sweeping changes don’t happen instantly. Key structural changes are incremental and build up over time. Regardless if we’re talking about the school or athletic program, you’re not going to see 50 non feeder kids come in next yr, that’s not how it works. Hopefully, you see maybe 3-5 next yr and that number holds for a few yr, then it goes up to maybe 5-8 and continues to build up to reasonable level throughout the yrs.
 

OldSchoolPanther

Active member
Agree with the overall spirit of your post oskar.

I'd like to see more transparency with the long-range plan - something to galvanize the alumni base to act and give more. I know personally, I'd be re-energized knowing what changes are on tap (even if they don't work). I feel that's a legitimate request of someone that is constantly being asked to donate. I have to feel like my money is going towards something I believe in. You have to take some calculated risks.
 
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OldSchoolPanther

Active member
I think it’s lost on ppl like OSP, that big sweeping changes don’t happen instantly. Key structural changes are incremental and build up over time. Regardless if we’re talking about the school or athletic program, you’re not going to see 50 non feeder kids come in next yr, that’s not how it works. Hopefully, you see maybe 3-5 next yr and that number holds for a few yr, then it goes up to maybe 5-8 and continues to build up to reasonable level throughout the yrs.
I've never held them to that standard. Ever. Another thing that needs to change are vast mis-representations of my posts. Nothing is "lost on me" - I get it. But if you're being honest (the point at which change can actually happen), you'd have to readily admit that "asleep at the wheel" is more than appropriate over the last decade (and has been used by many more people than just me).

Many of the past leaders have done their part to preserve Elder. The next (current) generation of leaders needs to evolve it.

Perhaps they're waking up a little bit, and if so, results will follow. The truth teller should be spelled out in their success, not if "they tried real hard." That's not how this works.
 
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SMARTY22

Active member
Oskar, lot of folks on here have no idea what Elder is doing to try and improve enrollment. You have any idea of what type of plan the Board/School has for increasing enrollment?
 

oskar

Active member
Transparency is not Elder's strong suit. It isn't being ignored, but my brother is tight lipped about specifics.

First, I thank everyone for toning down the sniping that goes on in here because it is largely counterproductive, and I am just as guilty.

Something I have always felt that Elder needs to do is to consult with other schools, obviously in other markets, to gain their perspective on these problems. Perhaps schools with a more Unitarian persuasion would be a good place to look. I'm not suggesting we abandon our Catholic core values and the overall mission, but widen our perspective. I don't see that as a conflict.

The Catholic community is not the same as it was when I was a kid almost 50 years ago. But whether we like it or not, up until 15-20 years ago the Westside of Cincinnati, and the demographics of what was the area Elder drew from was 95%+ white and mostly Catholic. That has certainly changed. I haven't lived in Price Hill since 1975 when I was 18. After four years in the USAF I have lived in the Madison, WI area for 40 years. People are different up here. Cincy's Westside is probably the most provincial place I have ever lived. I can remember my guidance counselor, Mr. Keller, making the statement that if you don't leave Cincinnati by the time you turn 18, you probably never will. While that probably isn't as true today you get my point.

Collectively, we are very conservative. That's not a bad thing. But when you never leave, and for generations are surrounded by people of similar backgrounds, upbringings, and pov you begin to believe that is how it must be for everyone and fail to gain that wider perspective. The world I grew up in was working class white. The world of Elder students today is mostly middle class white. Guess what folks, that's just us, not the rest of the world. Believe it or not, people that live in the upper Midwest view places like Cincinnati and it's location on the Ohio River as southerners.

It's obvious to me just from the discussions in here that individually most of us are open minded to change. But because of who we are collectively, those changes will be painfully slow in a coming. I wish I had the wisdom to solve this problem because I believe a more diverse Elder would be a better Elder.
 

SMARTY22

Active member
Transparency is not Elder's strong suit. It isn't being ignored, but my brother is tight lipped about specifics.

First, I thank everyone for toning down the sniping that goes on in here because it is largely counterproductive, and I am just as guilty.

Something I have always felt that Elder needs to do is to consult with other schools, obviously in other markets, to gain their perspective on these problems. Perhaps schools with a more Unitarian persuasion would be a good place to look. I'm not suggesting we abandon our Catholic core values and the overall mission, but widen our perspective. I don't see that as a conflict.

The Catholic community is not the same as it was when I was a kid almost 50 years ago. But whether we like it or not, up until 15-20 years ago the Westside of Cincinnati, and the demographics of what was the area Elder drew from was 95%+ white and mostly Catholic. That has certainly changed. I haven't lived in Price Hill since 1975 when I was 18. After four years in the USAF I have lived in the Madison, WI area for 40 years. People are different up here. Cincy's Westside is probably the most provincial place I have ever lived. I can remember my guidance counselor, Mr. Keller, making the statement that if you don't leave Cincinnati by the time you turn 18, you probably never will. While that probably isn't as true today you get my point.

Collectively, we are very conservative. That's not a bad thing. But when you never leave, and for generations are surrounded by people of similar backgrounds, upbringings, and pov you begin to believe that is how it must be for everyone and fail to gain that wider perspective. The world I grew up in was working class white. The world of Elder students today is mostly middle class white. Guess what folks, that's just us, not the rest of the world. Believe it or not, people that live in the upper Midwest view places like Cincinnati and it's location on the Ohio River as southerners.

It's obvious to me just from the discussions in here that individually most of us are open minded to change. But because of who we are collectively, those changes will be painfully slow in a coming. I wish I had the wisdom to solve this problem because I believe a more diverse Elder would be a better Elder.
Really appreciate your comments on this and your service to our country.
 

Noeyboey

New member
I too will assume that the biggest hurdle for increasing enrollment is the cost of tuition. Getting past the sticker shock is hard. I know from personal experience that Elder has been very good to my family at meeting me where I am. Every year we have been asked what we think we can pay and Elder has come down to my level three years in a row. Seton was a little less forgiving, however, they do not have an enrollment problem so I understand.

Serious question for oskar or anyone else. Do we know of a student or family who was turned away due to not being able to pay the full tuition? I know students have left my son's class, but I believe they physically moved from the area or thought another school could better help their son.

If a family is committed to getting their son to Elder, Elder will be equally committed to making it happen. That's just my personal experience.
 

OldSchoolPanther

Active member
If a family is committed to getting their son to Elder, Elder will be equally committed to making it happen. That's just my personal experience.
I agree, and have heard similar stories from many Elder families.

But you would also think that this would be intriguing for minorities and non-traditional students to at least show some interest in the school. I constantly hear "we want kids who want to be here", but the rest of the city doesn't look at Elder like we do. We have to realize that our deep passion was instilled in our way of life since we were little kids. Others outside of that don't have that same road they've walked.

I cringe when I hear "we want kids who want to be here" because no one up there realizes that kids outside of the Elder circle DON'T want to be there. Elder feels there's something "wrong" with them if they can't understand why Elder is so great. That's not a good place to be. You can't say "this is who we are, love us or leave us". That is a recipe for disaster in today's world. You have to actively "sell" every potential candidate.
 

ElderMackStud

New member
While community outreach into non-traditional feeder outlets are great ideas but at the end of the day, parents want to be part of their kid’s communities as well. Elder’s adult community has a reputation of not welcoming “outsiders” and staying in their own groups. This is coming from people that have sent their children to Elder and other GCL schools. An example of this is the tailgating – go to St X and all the football player parents are in one area. Grant it, there are pockets of parents but they are all together. At Elder – everyone already has their set of friends. Elder’s board and leadership needs to get outside perspective/influence – they had this perspective with Fr Schaeper
 

Omar

Well-known member
While community outreach into non-traditional feeder outlets are great ideas but at the end of the day, parents want to be part of their kid’s communities as well. Elder’s adult community has a reputation of not welcoming “outsiders” and staying in their own groups. This is coming from people that have sent their children to Elder and other GCL schools. An example of this is the tailgating – go to St X and all the football player parents are in one area. Grant it, there are pockets of parents but they are all together. At Elder – everyone already has their set of friends. Elder’s board and leadership needs to get outside perspective/influence – they had this perspective with Fr Schaeper
You really think X doesn’t have cliques? And if parents are make their decision on where to send their son based on tailgating for football games, they’re unfit parents.

Your last comment is dead on. I wonder if they’ve looked into hiring a consulting or PR Firm. I’m sure it’s a heavy price tag, but if they can help increase enrollment, they pay for themselves
 

SMARTY22

Active member
You really think X doesn’t have cliques? And if parents are make their decision on where to send their son based on tailgating for football games, they’re unfit parents.

Your last comment is dead on. I wonder if they’ve looked into hiring a consulting or PR Firm. I’m sure it’s a heavy price tag, but if they can help increase enrollment, they pay for themselves
Many of truly unfit parents around. Is it possible to be an unfit parent while sending your kid to a private school? PR firm may help but if the approach they would take is not what the administration wants or is looking for that route could be a huge waste of money.
 
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