Do we need a shot clock in Ohio high school basketball

OldSchoolPanther said:
Fantastic article on the impacts of a shot clock and how it can impact practice prep, player development and coach control. THIS is exactly what we're talking about. It has nothing to do with scoring, fan interest, or college readiness. This article is spot on and this author gets it.

Impact of Coaching With a Shot Clock | theLLaBB

www.thellabb.com www.thellabb.com
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Decent article. I 100% disagree with the analogy that a team without a shot clock will "catch- read- attack", while a shot clock makes a team "read-catch-attack".

You can have offenses designed to read first and be very deliberate in ball movement then final attack 30-90 seconds later.

Also, I would not call 45 seconds a long shot clock. In a hotly game many possessions require 90 seconds or more to play out, by design. The first minute is ball movement designed to make the defense shift and recover. This wears down the legs of the opponet over the course of the game.

A shot clock makes the defense aware of how long it is until the offense must take a shot. That heavily favors the defense. Ironically, it also teaches kids to only work for a specific length of time. No shot clock, means the mentality is you can not give up . The mental requirements to defend without a shot clock is requires much more determination.

Even though I am an old guy, we (AAU) experimented with the shot clock a few years back in practice. I wanted to personally experience it myself, as I had never played under one.

We found success offensively had best results with a floor of guards who can create on their own, shoot the three. We had a rather tall team that often played a 3-2 zone or hedged and gave back on screens when playing man defense. With the shot clock that tall lineup was not as essential as agile feet made up for extra height, when only needing to defend for 30 seconds.

Think I have a pretty clear idea how it would change the game, and it would favor more athletic teams. We already made one huge change in adding the three that favored additional guards on the floor vs big physical rebounders and kids to post up inside.
 
winbypin said:
They only get 5 timeouts.
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They don't get a million :)?

With no shot clock in a tight game the coach can bail their team out 5 times in the final 2 min. I would like to see 3 timeouts a 1/2 with no carryover. With a shot clock keep the TO's as it is.

They don't allow stalling in wrestling and it makes for a better product, right?
 
RUTrippin said:
Just curious why you say that a lot of catholic schools would be done if they had a shot clock?
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Your right I should have said most Catholic school teams I've seen play plays pass the ball around 4o times before you shoot the ball. But let me guess this is a great offense. And now that West Hi used the stall ball to win a game now we need a shot clock. Have you ever been to a game and they passed the ball around 40 times and they're down by double digits it makes for a boring game and several times I found myself falling asleep. Having a shot clock will speed the game up and make the game more exciting to watch. Who wants to watch a game that both teams pass the ball around 50 times before they shoot and the half time score is 18 to 22 and the final score be 32 to 36 then people say they were playing great defense. No its because they passed the ball around for 3 to 4 min in an 8 min quarter. So think about some of these teams that don't have the manpower or star players to compete playing at a fast pace with a shot clock but your offensive philosophy has been pass the ball around for 2 min before you shoot.
 
OldSchoolPanther said:
LOL ok

What a stupid comment. The Catholic coaches are some of the best of the bunch. They'd figure it out.
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How is it stupid. How many catholic school games have you been to that plays an uptempo style game? That shoots the ball before 35 sec. I've been to several and have not seen it yet. Some GMC teams play that way also I've never seen it in the CMAC some CHL teams but the GCL almost every team plays this way. So again how is it stupid. And your right they are some of best of the brunch of coaches at holding the ball 2 to 3 min before they shoot I agree.
 
Something To Say said:
Your right I should have said most Catholic school teams I've seen play plays pass the ball around 4o times before you shoot the ball. But let me guess this is a great offense. And now that West Hi used the stall ball to win a game now we need a shot clock. Have you ever been to a game and they passed the ball around 40 times and they're down by double digits it makes for a boring game and several times I found myself falling asleep. Having a shot clock will speed the game up and make the game more exciting to watch. Who wants to watch a game that both teams pass the ball around 50 times before they shoot and the half time score is 18 to 22 and the final score be 32 to 36 then people say they were playing great defense. No its because they passed the ball around for 3 to 4 min in an 8 min quarter. So think about some of these teams that don't have the manpower or star players to compete playing at a fast pace with a shot clock but your offensive philosophy has been pass the ball around for 2 min before you shoot.
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I would be good with a shot clock.

But I'm pretty sure this same thread has played out about 20 times before and this is not the 1st time people have been upset about stall ball/2 minute possessions, so you are off base with the intent behind the thread. Has nothing to do with one school or another.

I can't think of any Catholic schools in the Toledo area that have used a deliberate offense, ever.
 
Bottom line: Nobody wants to coach defense anymore. While you are correct that the Catholic schools are really patient on offense, (hold the ball) if they only had to guard for 30 seconds each trip down the floor they would be even more solid defensively. Shot clock or not, if you think the Catholic Schools wouldn't still win, you are mistaken.
 
winbypin said:
Next level? For almost ALL of these players their next game will be in the driveway, the Y, or intramurals in college. Highschool basketball is not about preparing 3% of the athletes for college.
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We need to stay going up in basketball. Just like when they put in the 3pt line. NBA had it 1st then the NCAA then high school got it. Same with the shot clock NBA and NCAA has it now its time for high school to fall in line. So, freshman coaches, don't prepare there kids to play JV. JV coaches don't prepare their players to play varsity the following year. What program that don't do that so I know where not to send my kid.
 
Something To Say said:
How is it stupid. How many catholic school games have you been to that plays an uptempo style game? That shoots the ball before 35 sec. I've been to several and have not seen it yet. Some GMC teams play that way also I've never seen it in the CMAC some CHL teams but the GCL almost every team plays this way. So again how is it stupid. And your right they are some of best of the brunch of coaches at holding the ball 2 to 3 min before they shoot I agree.
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I agree that they play that way. A shot clock would force better flow.

Coaches are doing it because they CAN, not because they have to (even though they will tell you they have to).

The Catholic coaches would have to adapt, and imo, it's needed. However, I do think they're all good enough coaches to adapt, they are just choosing not to because they want to retain more control. It's more about them, their success, and keeping their jobs than it is about player development.
 
AllSports12 said:
The HS game is not responsible for entertaining you.

Spend your money on the AAU circuit.
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This is literally your only response in this thread. Quit talking about the entertainment value. It's a shallow argument and shows you really don't grasp the bigger picture with the shot clock debate.
 
InTheKnow513 said:
Bottom line: Nobody wants to coach defense anymore. While you are correct that the Catholic schools are really patient on offense, (hold the ball) if they only had to guard for 30 seconds each trip down the floor they would be even more solid defensively. Shot clock or not, if you think the Catholic Schools wouldn't still win, you are mistaken.
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Good point. A shot clock would improve Catholic school offense (it's terrible now) and they would still have great defense.

Like I've said the entire time, coach control and ego is a huge factor in this. They don't want a governing board telling them how to coach, even if most of them say they prefer a shot clock. I don't believe it for a second.
 
Something To Say said:
How is it stupid. How many catholic school games have you been to that plays an uptempo style game? That shoots the ball before 35 sec. I've been to several and have not seen it yet. Some GMC teams play that way also I've never seen it in the CMAC some CHL teams but the GCL almost every team plays this way. So again how is it stupid. And your right they are some of best of the brunch of coaches at holding the ball 2 to 3 min before they shoot I agree.
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Gotta disagree with you. Not gonna lie used to somewhat subscribe to what you are saying but not so much anymore. The GCL south with 4 competitive teams and only a 6 game league schedule not 18 like some others makes each game almost win or go home tournament like. And with Moe’s program so good and everyone else on a fairly level playing field you can’t afford one off night playing carefree sloppy basketball expecting to win. As in the tournament quality possessions and quality shots become the gold standard for survival so the possessions become longer. You look at their scoring averages and however you want to look at it either 10 or more points less in league or 10 or more higher out of league for each GCL team backs that up. Plus I’m guessing that their out of league games are not all against teams that are saying man we can beat moeller if we can just get them to play faster. And contrary to what philly cat says if you don’t believe that lasalle wasnt cooking at a different temperature on the defensive end than most everyone else under Fleming back in the day you be crazy! Anyway just my theory. Let me add would love to see a shot clock plus maybe some FT revisions especially for end of games. Kinda hate that a team that’s proven themself substantially better can blow a game missing free throws when intentionally foulef. I said kinda. ?
 
I love watching the GCL. some of my favorite games. Shinning Stars AAU which feeds from them is nearly as deliberate in AAU games as high school.

One thing missing here in the conversation is big school vs small school.
Big schools play faster typically and have the athletes to adapt to change.

Small school ball is much more about figuring out what this years group of kids can do well, then design a game that utilizes the skills of the most kids possible.
 
D4fan said:
I love watching the GCL. some of my favorite games. Shinning Stars AAU which feeds from them is nearly as deliberate in AAU games as high school.

One thing missing here in the conversation is big school vs small school.
Big schools play faster typically and have the athletes to adapt to change.

Small school ball is much more about figuring out what this years group of kids can do well, then design a game that utilizes the skills of the most kids possible.
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Amen! Small schools can't recruit/offer scholarships like the big private schools...they have to play with their homegrown kids thus coming up with a strategy to keep themselves competitive.
 
Smalls said:
They don't get a million :)?

With no shot clock in a tight game the coach can bail their team out 5 times in the final 2 min. I would like to see 3 timeouts a 1/2 with no carryover. With a shot clock keep the TO's as it is.

They don't allow stalling in wrestling and it makes for a better product, right?
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The timeouts in basketball partly exist to "bail" the team don't they? Not sure what the complaint there is.

Yes, there are rules against stalling in wrestling. Caution first and then points can be awarded. It is somewhat subjective and there are complaints it's not being applied equally. Does it make for a better product? Debatable. Because of the subjectivity it can seem as if the ref is inserting him/herself into the match. Many times it appears to be called late in the match more frequently even though the same action earlier in the match was allowed. And there isn't a "shot clock" aspect either that requires action within a certain amount of time. And there also isn't a ball involved to try to get from your opponent before you can score.
 
Something To Say said:
Your right I should have said most Catholic school teams I've seen play plays pass the ball around 4o times before you shoot the ball. But let me guess this is a great offense. And now that West Hi used the stall ball to win a game now we need a shot clock. Have you ever been to a game and they passed the ball around 40 times and they're down by double digits it makes for a boring game and several times I found myself falling asleep. Having a shot clock will speed the game up and make the game more exciting to watch. Who wants to watch a game that both teams pass the ball around 50 times before they shoot and the half time score is 18 to 22 and the final score be 32 to 36 then people say they were playing great defense. No its because they passed the ball around for 3 to 4 min in an 8 min quarter. So think about some of these teams that don't have the manpower or star players to compete playing at a fast pace with a shot clock but your offensive philosophy has been pass the ball around for 2 min before you shoot.
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High school basketball isn't really about the fans though. If you want you are free to attend college or NBA games if you are looking for a certain type of product. Or just skip the high school teams you find boring.

Problem solved!
 
Something To Say said:
We need to stay going up in basketball. Just like when they put in the 3pt line. NBA had it 1st then the NCAA then high school got it. Same with the shot clock NBA and NCAA has it now its time for high school to fall in line. So, freshman coaches, don't prepare there kids to play JV. JV coaches don't prepare their players to play varsity the following year. What program that don't do that so I know where not to send my kid.
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Why is it time for high school to fall in line? How is that determined exactly?

When you make the claim that the shot clock in HS will help prepare the kids for the next level, it's obvious you are talking about college (especially when you mention a college in your post). Of course HS programs prepare their players to move from freshmen, to JV, to varsity. The shot clock doesn't help that
 
Marion Local New Bremen Game last week....2nd overtime...Marion Local held the ball for the entire second quarter..ten seconds left..drove in and scored. Game over.
 
winbypin said:
Of course HS programs prepare their players to move from freshmen, to JV, to varsity. The shot clock doesn't help that
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Why wouldn't it help that? Of course it would.

The escalation of skills needed to play offense within the shot clock is exactly the type of progression varsity coaches should want from Freshman to Senior year. I would argue it helps with that progression immensely.
 
Same people arguing for a shot clock - will probably be on here blasting teams for poor sportsmanship when they beat a team 100-10. The shot clock does not make games more competitive - close games will be close games no matter if the score is 25-20 or 80-75 - the shot clock would actually make games much worse and less competitive. Stall ball is the only way for some teams to not get beat by 50 every night.

If I was coaching, and a shot clock was forced on me - you can pretty much throw sportsmanship out the window....I'm not running that clock down to 5 seconds every possession, I'm doing everything I can to score 100+ every night. Lets face it, what is the difference if I beat a team by 40 running the clock down, or if I beat them by 60 pushing the pace?!
 
How does adding a shot clock mean you're going to score 100+ every night. LOL

There's nothing stopping you from doing that now.

More shots doesn't automatically mean more points. The intent of the clock is to improve flow, not scoring.
 
Tesoro said:
Marion Local New Bremen Game last week....2nd overtime...Marion Local held the ball for the entire second quarter..ten seconds left..drove in and scored. Game over.
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That's on New Bremmen. Why create a rule to prevent the New Bremmen coach from making a terrible coaching decision?
 
Implementing a shot clock isn't a "rule", it's a decision. They are separate. Once implemented, there are rules around the decision.

Just like implementing a 3 point line isn't a rule, it's a decision.

Big philosophical difference.
 
OldSchoolPanther said:
Why wouldn't it help that? Of course it would.

The escalation of skills needed to play offense within the shot clock is exactly the type of progression varsity coaches should want from Freshman to Senior year. I would argue it helps with that progression immensely.
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Pure speculation on your part. Kids are already progressing through those levels today without any shot clock.
 
winbypin said:
Pure speculation on your part. Kids are already progressing through those levels today without any shot clock.
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LOL You think a shot clock would make that progression worse? Why? That makes no sense.

So it's better for the masses to teach them to hold the ball? Huh?
 
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