district seeds or random

cruiser_96

Well-known member
Question: How many pairings can be created AND NOT repeat an order??? So far I've copied the exact pairings used for each weight class going back four years, and like twice has there been a repeat.

NOTE: if from top to bottom the order is reversed, I count that as a non-repeat.
 

350zjk

Active member
So they are random drawn , they dont seed the 4 groups (sectionals) .Thanks
The initial #1 vs #4 and #2 vs #3 from four different sectionals is a good start, but I think they could actually put just a little more effort in to seed the quarter brackets.
 

Dr. Creep

Active member
Question: How many pairings can be created AND NOT repeat an order??? So far I've copied the exact pairings used for each weight class going back four years, and like twice has there been a repeat.

NOTE: if from top to bottom the order is reversed, I count that as a non-repeat.
If the process minimizes repeats, then it's not truly random.
 

cruiser_96

Well-known member
If the process minimizes repeats, then it's not truly random.
Agreed. 100%.

I guess my question is how many versions of pairings can there be without repeats? Is there not some mathematical/statistical answer here?

Come on, mathletes - lend a helping hand!
 

WGTJ

Well-known member
Agreed. 100%.

I guess my question is how many versions of pairings can there be without repeats? Is there not some mathematical/statistical answer here?

Come on, mathletes - lend a helping hand!

Yes, there would be a mathematical answer, but someone else will need to do the math. I would have to get on Excel to figure it out quickly and I'm not able to do that right now.

Edit- cruiser, I am unfortunately not a mensa candidate.
 
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darthmalice

Well-known member
Some years ago, the topic about a true 2nd and a true 4th was brought up because sometimes a random draw would create a scenario where the best 4 don't go to state. Probably happened a lot in the Mentor/ meat grinder district back in the days.
 

350zjk

Active member
Some years ago, the topic about a true 2nd and a true 4th was brought up because sometimes a random draw would create a scenario where the best 4 don't go to state. Probably happened a lot in the Mentor/ meat grinder district back in the days.
Would it be that much work to seed the quarter brackets in order to get the best wrestlers to Columbus?
 

bucksman

Moderator
The only exceptions to the 1/4, 2/3 being random at district is if there are two returning top three state placers in a district weight class -- example: Perry D2 215 with Snider and Getz likely clearing different sectionals as champions, those two will be forced into opposite halves by rule.
 
Looking through actual brackets, there is 1 pattern used for bracketing.

Sectional A 1,2,3,4 go to lines 1, 7, 11 and 13
Sectional B 4,3,2,1 go to lines 2, 8, 12 and 14
Sectional C 1,2,3,4 go to lines 9, 3, 5 and 15
Sectional D 4,3,2,1 go to lines 10, 4, 6 and 16

A, B, C and D assignments alternate through the weight classes
This is the pattern for District and the same with State.
This ends up being 4 different bracket possibilities.
 

Wrestler7

New member
Last year at a D1 District I counted 12 different combinations that were used. Only 2 combination where used more than once.

You have to look at the whole 16 man bracket to see the changes. Not just the top 1/4 or top 1/2.
 
Good point. I was looking at a sample size too small. One weight class over 3 years.
Looking at 2 districts all weight classes, each weight had different combinations.
 

CoachTreon

Active member
Soooooo…how many possible pairings?

ps: LOVE the color-coded pic. That’s freaking legit!

I believe it would be 24 different bracket sets, because once the 1st group of 4 is determined, the other 12 lines have to be a matching pattern of 1v4, 2v3 based on the 1st quarter bracket. (The bottom half could be flip-flopped, but that doesn't do anything in terms of creating a "new" bracket.) See picture:
1645798306596.png
 
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CoachTreon

Active member
Ok, final answer here (for now...)

There are 48 different bracket combinations. Due to the cross-bracketing of losers from the Championship Quarterfinals into the consolation round 2 lines, the bottom orientation (or pairing) of the bracket does in fact matter.

Here it is with the crayons for the simple folk:
1645799977376.png

Note the highlighted/Bracketed "Conso 2" pairings in each bracket... This shows that the flip-flopped bottom quarters actually creates a unique bracket.

Since the flip flop of the top quarters would be covered in the initial 24 quarters that can be created, we get 48 possible district brackets that can be created.
 

cruiser_96

Well-known member
Freaking legit!

A colleague mentioned 96. Seems like the number as completely flipping the bracket is technically the same, but I view it as a new bracket. So 48 x2 = 96. And that’s 14 weight classes using all the options meaning every ~6.5 years we can start again.
 

Latman

Active member
Ok, final answer here (for now...)

There are 48 different bracket combinations. Due to the cross-bracketing of losers from the Championship Quarterfinals into the consolation round 2 lines, the bottom orientation (or pairing) of the bracket does in fact matter.

Here it is with the crayons for the simple folk:
View attachment 26940

Note the highlighted/Bracketed "Conso 2" pairings in each bracket... This shows that the flip-flopped bottom quarters actually creates a unique bracket.

Since the flip flop of the top quarters would be covered in the initial 24 quarters that can be created, we get 48 possible district brackets that can be created.
I think 24 per weight is the correct answer for how it is drawn at districts. The quarters are the same formula being used, meaning if the top quarter has the #1 from sectional A, the number 2 from sectional A will always be in the bottom (last) quarter, #3 from sectional A will always be in 3rd quarter, #4 from sectional A will always be in the 2nd quarter. All with designated spots. So regardless of which #1 from each sectional sits in a spot, all the others from that sectional will have a designated quarter they fall in and it will not be random for 2-4.
1645821096169.png
 
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