Daniels' rest between rep and interval sets?

[madman]

Psycho are you simply looking for a fight? I am missing what you are trying to add to the dialogue.

No one said bad coaching won a state title.

The point was that state titles have been won with talent, hard work, and motivation in spite of less than optimal coaching. Good coaching increases the odds of a team and individuals doing well but it doesn't guarantee it.

At the same time, I think that any coach who has been around for awhile can look back on situations when their teams or individuals had tremendous success despite making some really bone head coaching moves.

 

[Running Man 101]

Well, this has been a good discussion so far.

However, only two real answers to the initial question, which was "how much rest between major sets". For clarity, say we just finished a set of 3x2mile @ T, then run some 200F + 200jog, how much rest between completing the T runs and starting the 200F runs. Within the group, the rest period is clear.

BTW, why down on 1600/3200 double? At small meets, yes it can be a problem. But at the invites there is plenty of rest in between. One of our kids runs them both because he is the fastest in both and scoring points matters to our team. I would approach it differently if we had enough kids to fill in all the slots, but we don't. He has a great base and these runs don't really tax him that much (but then again he doesn't have elite level speed either).

From my novice POV, it takes some time for most younger kids to learn to run hard for 2 miles or 3.1 for that matter. Also, I don' think the running for Daniel's is to hard for kids with a good base. It shows up immediately for kids who do not...

 

[ccrunner609]

Well, this has been a good discussion so far.

However, only two real answers to the initial question, which was "how much rest between major sets". For clarity, say we just finished a set of 3x2mile @ T, then run some 200F + 200jog, how much rest between completing the T runs and starting the 200F runs. Within the group, the rest period is clear.

BTW, why down on 1600/3200 double? At small meets, yes it can be a problem. But at the invites there is plenty of rest in between. One of our kids runs them both because he is the fastest in both and scoring points matters to our team. I would approach it differently if we had enough kids to fill in all the slots, but we don't. He has a great base and these runs don't really tax him that much (but then again he doesn't have elite level speed either).

From my novice POV, it takes some time for most younger kids to learn to run hard for 2 miles or 3.1 for that matter. Also, I don' think the running for Daniel's is to hard for kids with a good base. It shows up immediately for kids who do not...

First question of time between T pace running and F pace 200's.............since you are working a compeltely different energy system and muscle type I dont think it matters......5 minutes, 10 minutes......very little correlation between the 2.

 

[moemancc]

First question of time between T pace running and F pace 200's.............since you are working a compeltely different energy system and muscle type I dont think it matters......5 minutes, 10 minutes......very little correlation between the 2.

I was gonna mention that exact point. Because you are in completely different energy systems it shouldn't really matter. Basically let your kids feel a bit recovered and then get started. In response to your racing I can see your point and I have long had this dilemma as well. I know how nice it is for your team and how helpful it can be to get athletes out when you are winning team titles at meets. In the long run that can be good for bringing out good runners to your team. However you can do your best runners now a disservice by doing that all the time. Your runner would get better at the mile and consequently the two mile if he were to run a few more 800s and possibly even a 4x400 (if you are a small school this could be the case). Working on his speed in competitive situations helps his kick and also makes it easier to run faster times in the other events as well.

 

[psycho_dad]

And on many occasions bad coaching and talent wins state titles.
And bad coaching and hard work wins state titles.
And bad coaching and driven individuals win state titles.

Madman; You are correct! No one said bad coaching ever won a state title.

So, what do I want to add to the conversation here?

I don't think the Springfield Shawnee coach won the state in CC simply because he has a better reading comprehension than the rest of the coaches in D2.

It's good kids that make good coaches of us all. Until the kids decide they want to win, following Jack Daniels to a T will not get it done. CC609 knows all about the JD method and he has had a couple of very good teams and individuals. He has also had some lousy ones. It's not about the method, it's about the kids.

"Running dual meets in track is stupid. It's too much racing!" Our entire program is based around dual meets. We have had state champions that have run the 4x800, 1600, 800 and either 3200 or 4x400 twice a week for the entire track season.

"Running a 5k in CC every weekend is a terrible idea." "I would never have my kids run mile repeats in CC." I know a program that runs mile repeats each and every week in CC and races 5ks every week and has multiple state champion teams and many other very high finishes at the state meet.

I've read all the things in quotes above here on Yappi and can go on for days giving examples that contradict those assertions. You can train a girl to perfection and in one day their iron can drop and bam, they can't race worth a flip. There are no hard set rules. No absolutes when dealing with teenage kids.

In track & field and CC, 2+2 does not necessarily = 4.

 

[Running Man 101]

I would like to say thank you for all of your input. Particularly the feedback on rest between groups.


As I've told most of you, my background is more in field events, so I approach distance running more from an acedemic background. I've read many books on distance running and have talked to various coaches (thank you to all of you!) to learn what I can. I'm sure there are multiple different ways to train HS kids in distance running, but Daniel's has it laid out pretty good for a starter. I've taken over the distance coaching because there was nobody else.

A agree with the most important part of the system being the base. This is true in every sport. Base line conditioning prevents injuries, which enables higher intensity work and better long term performance.

So I have one last question related to base work as I'm currently working on the summer training system. I've come across and emerging group of coaches that believe during the later stages of base training one to two days should be set aside for 1) pure sprint work (100% effort) and 2) strength endurance training (mixing in push ups, jump squats... with hard 200-400m running). Any of you ever try incorporating this?

My main goal is help some of the runners that have great endurance develop more speed for via 1) and more mental toughness for via 2).

Thanks for any input.

 

[ccrunner609]

^^^^^Yes, in a 6 week base phase it would be wise to add a lead up day to workouts to come. The last 2 weeks of a 6 week phase it would be good to have a lactate threshold day.....we will take a 9 mile day and do 3 miles easy, 3 miles of either 6x800 or 5x1k or 3x1600 (depending on age) and let kids get some submaximal work in that is around the LT pace. We will also put in a 2-N-go 400 day...maybe 6-8 of them and tell them to run them at 5k pace.

We usually run 2 summer races during phase 2 so these workouts will pay off later in the summer and not be detrimental to the training.

 

[madman]

As high school coaches we would serve our kids well if we remembered to train them as athletes a first priority and then as sprinters, throwers, distance runners, etc. This also means letting, if not encouraging, them do other sports.

This is especially true in the off-season, or base phase.

I am a firm believer in training at all speeds in all phases. The relative volumes and rest intervals vary significantly from phase to phase, however. I think it's perfectly ok for kids to be doing sprint work and speed endurance work in the summer, but you have to be careful in how you go about it.

First of all, if you want your kids to follow the rules in season, then you have to be willing to follow the rules in the off-season. According to the OHSAA, as a coach you are not allowed to have them doing intervals in the summer. You are not allowed to have required practices. Etc.

Secondly, you don't want to do workouts that are mentally/emotionally draining during the summer/base phase. Keep the fun factor higher than normal.

Create games that accomplish your goals. Try to design them so that they are inclusive and allow each kid to push themselves as much as they are ready and able to do so. Building a team during the summer will usually payoff well in the fall. There are all kinds of things you can do to reward the behavior you want. Bring food for every one and then have the kids nominate someone who worked really hard for a special reward a couple times each week.

Long runs, progessive runs, fartleks, etc. are all good workouts that can be as hard or as easy as each athlete is willing to do.

If you can get them to really push themselves a couple times a week and still get to August mentally fresh and excited, you've won a good part of the battle.

 

[ccrunner609]

As high school coaches we would serve our kids well if we remembered to train them as athletes a first priority and then as sprinters, throwers, distance runners, etc. This also means letting, if not encouraging, them do other sports.

This is especially true in the off-season, or base phase.

I am a firm believer in training at all speeds in all phases. The relative volumes and rest intervals vary significantly from phase to phase, however. I think it's perfectly ok for kids to be doing sprint work and speed endurance work in the summer, but you have to be careful in how you go about it.

First of all, if you want your kids to follow the rules in season, then you have to be willing to follow the rules in the off-season. According to the OHSAA, as a coach you are not allowed to have them doing intervals in the summer. You are not allowed to have required practices. Etc.

Secondly, you don't want to do workouts that are mentally/emotionally draining during the summer/base phase. Keep the fun factor higher than normal.

Create games that accomplish your goals. Try to design them so that they are inclusive and allow each kid to push themselves as much as they are ready and able to do so. Building a team during the summer will usually payoff well in the fall. There are all kinds of things you can do to reward the behavior you want. Bring food for every one and then have the kids nominate someone who worked really hard for a special reward a couple times each week.

Long runs, progessive runs, fartleks, etc. are all good workouts that can be as hard or as easy as each athlete is willing to do.

If you can get them to really push themselves a couple times a week and still get to August mentally fresh and excited, you've won a good part of the battle.

Madman you are misinformed, a coach cannot make summer mandatory and are not allowed to organize or operate a workout, not allowed to time an athlete, Athletes can be given workouts to do but that is it. You cant put a watch to a kid. You can give a kid a summer plan that can list 10x400 somewhere in it but you cant operate a practice around that

 

[Running Man 101]

Madman you are misinformed, a coach cannot make summer mandatory and are not allowed to organize or operate a workout, not allowed to time an athlete, Athletes can be given workouts to do but that is it. You cant put a watch to a kid. You can give a kid a summer plan that can list 10x400 somewhere in it but you cant operate a practice around that

Just for clarity, I'm talking about the uncoached summer plan. This is why I need to get it done sooner, before school is out. I mean it is up to them to run. We are going to try to have the seniors get together everyone at least twice per week for runs. They are even going to have to get the emails and phone numbers themselves.

Just so that I am clear. I can be present when they run during the summer, we are just allowed to time them or provide any type of feedback (outside of the 10 contact days). My understanding is that we can say hi to them and socialize with them. Please help me out if I have this wrong.

 

[madman]

What I was thinking and what I actually wrote were in fact not exactly the same. In my head I was thinking of what you could do when your group gets together if you are present. You cannot have mandatory practices, nor can you supervise "interval type" workouts, which to the OHSAA essentially means putting your watch to a structured workout.

You can run with the kids. You can be with them while they are running hard. Conditioning is permissible for nearly all sports, nearly all summer. There is a lot of gray area in that for sports like CC for which most training falls under the concept of conditioning for other sports.

If you keep your practices set up like an "open gym" where all kids are permitted to play and coaches aren't directing activities, you will be fine.

 

[Running Man 101]

On last question to get the group wisdom on:

During Phase 1 training, would it be harmful to start using some Tempo runs one day per week early on?

 

[madman]

One size does not fit all.

For a well-conditioned distance runner coming out of track, there is no reason they need to be slogging through slow miles every day. Tempo pace work can be done a couple times per week even during the base phase, but I would be cautious about requiring it.

During June, I encourage the guys to run hard when they want to run hard and run easy when they want to run easy, but remain relatively committed to their mileage goals. I also warm them if they only want to run easy everyday there is a problem - they might be mentally fried from the spring or they might be feeling too much pressure for the fall. If that begins to happen, they should probably plan to contact me so that we can discuss goals and their training further. They don't need to be afraid of running the local 5k, 10k, etc. It's ok to have some fun running diffferent kinds of races, including triathalons provided they keep perspective and don't get emotionally tied into their performances.

During July, I want them to start being more deliberate in attempting progression runs, steady state runs, fartleks, hills, and tempo runs. I would like to have them do these 2-3 times each week while continuing to ramp up their mileage. Increasing their long run to at least 90 minutes would be a good goal for most. If you have true sprinters that are going to run CC in the fall, you probably want to have them on a different program but temper what might be physically optimal for them with their emotional need to spend time with their friends while running. Treat everyone as an athlete, rather than as a 100m sprinter, a 400m sprinter, a basketball player, etc. They are kids - let them retain a sense of play in their running. If they want to do a long run with their friends, let them.

If you use a 24 week cycle, then 5/26 would be the beginning of your base phase that concludes at the state meet. However, for an elite athlete I think it's better to think about Footlocker as being at the end of a 6 week peaking phase, which means 6/17 is the beginning of your 6 week base phase, July 29th is the beginning of precomp phase, Sept 10 is the beginning of the comp phase, and 10/20 is the beginning of the peak phase.

 

[ccrunner609]

^^^My dates are pretty close to that. Starting 6/10 with running more then 5 days a week. Kids can have a few weeks before that of 3-4 days a week.

As for the question about "tempo runs" (I hate that term...it doesnt mean anything because there is no physiological standard set to it) By tempo you probably mean "lactate threshold pace" (now that tells me exactly what you mean). I like my kids to do out and backs where the back is at least 90 seconds faster per mile then the out

 

[Running Man 101]

^^^My dates are pretty close to that. Starting 6/10 with running more then 5 days a week. Kids can have a few weeks before that of 3-4 days a week.

As for the question about "tempo runs" (I hate that term...it doesnt mean anything because there is no physiological standard set to it) By tempo you probably mean "lactate threshold pace" (now that tells me exactly what you mean). I like my kids to do out and backs where the back is at least 90 seconds faster per mile then the out

cc609, you and I both know that the tempo runs and thresh-hold runs are used interchangably. It's easier to type "tempo" than "thresh-hold".

So you would have some of your kids running some faster paces during the base phase. One physiological question, would there be any reason NOT to keep the anaerobic system in shape for an extended period of time?

 

[ccrunner609]

cc609, you and I both know that the tempo runs and thresh-hold runs are used interchangably. It's easier to type "tempo" than "thresh-hold".

So you would have some of your kids running some faster paces during the base phase. One physiological question, would there be any reason NOT to keep the anaerobic system in shape for an extended period of time?

If you have maxed out your mileage then the only way to keep pushing the bar is to push into the next physiological state (that is LT).

While building miles, especially the longer runs, a typical athlete will start to push into the LT zone later in a run regardless of not running at the LT velocity due to the degrading efficiency of the Kreb cycle and electron transport. But once you are nearing the maxing of the mileage adding the actual LT zone could help improve that system quicker.

THe question about the anaerobic system has bothered me for years. I assume you are talking about the speed that most runners have at the end of track season that seems to be waisted by going back to base training over the summer..........I have always wondered if a kid could train and keep that pencil sharp for another 5 months. I relegate leaving it die because a runner needs to base phase because the physiological changes are permanent and the anaerobic isnt...its temporary. Allowing a runner to go back and build again will make that peak anaerobic state better downt he road.

 

[madman]

One physiological question, would there be any reason NOT to keep the anaerobic system in shape for an extended period of time?

My understanding is that the enzymes that maximize anaerobic performance compromise the aerobic system, so it wouldn't make sense to keep the anaerobic system fully charged while emphasizing aerobic development. At the end of track season, your making the bet that that incremental benefits of maximizing the anaerobic system outweigh any negative impacts to the aerobic system in the short term.

That being said, there's nothing I know of that says you shouldn't do any work at, or near, peak speed in base phase. I would encourage your runners to continue with hard strides/accelerations all summer a couple times each week. It's unlikely most will do it in the form of typically training/workouts, so get them to play ultimate, soccer, etc. Encourage them to be athletic all summer - that means doing more than just jogging.

Work all speeds all year, just vary the rest and volume spent at each speed in each phase.