D1 State Semi-Finals Postponed

MentorGrad2002 said:
Dont even listen to Oilfilter. The guy is going off of paper articles and doesnt know the situation.
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OF doesn't need to know the details or parse the bylaws himself. That's why we have judges to resolve legal disputes, not a bunch of schmos on Yappi or anywhere else.

It's pretty clear to me that Franklin County Common Pleas Court Timothy Horton ruled on the merits of the case, and ruled against Mentor. I don't see anything that would lead me to believe this judge is somehow biased against Mentor in any way.

He just said the bylaw is somewhat vague, and the OHSAA reserves the right to interpret those bylaws for itself. Therefore, the judge said he was in no position to overturn the OHSAA's ruling.

I'm amazed that a judge showed such restraint for a change, to be honest. Some like to run around playing Solomon.

Now, I think it is also true that it's lame that Massillon Jackson brought this complaint on Tuesday when they arguably had to know this info during the Jackson/Mentor game itself. I don't think there's any denying that Jackson looks bad here by waiting to file the complaint.
 
Ok I agree with you on the OHSAA. I was not happy with them even before my school was brought in this. They are like the NCAA. They are often ticky tacky and about semantics instead of really looking into the situation.

We were given this crap right before boarding the buses on Tuesday for the game. It was thrown in our laps. We were denied a postponement of the game meaning that since it is played, an appeal is essentially worthless.

We do have a mandatory grading period end. It just doesnt have "reporting" in between the two words. While Oilfilter tries to argue semantics, the basis is the same. It is mandatory and the grades are in. Just because it doesnt have a word Mentor haters (like Oilfilter) and the OHSAA with their semantics just ignore it and sweep it under the rug.

Really I know the situation from talking to people personally (and not just students). I really dont care if people like Oilfilter are on my side because the guy doesnt know what he is talking about. But I am not going to let him blurt out bs to misconstrue what really happened.

"He just said the bylaw is somewhat vague, and the OHSAA reserves the right to interpret those bylaws for itself. Therefore, the judge said he was in no position to overturn the OHSAA's ruling."

Which pretty much means "yeah they had the bylaw but since the OHSAA didnt like the wording he cant do anything about it". Sorry but the courts should be the power over the OHSAA.

Let's get real here. Everyone knew a ruling with the game that night wasn't going to be given a fair shake. They didnt stop the game so we cant appeal. The judge even said that the law is vague but he is ruling in favor of the OHSAA anyways. He said this ruling if it was for Mentor would open up others to complain. He is pretty much saying that he doesnt want to mess with the OHSAA for fear of future repercussions. I say that in cases like this, the OHSAA is arguing over semantics but the judge wasnt going to butt heads with that governing body.

Bottom line: We had the mandatory day for grades. We just had different wording and the OHSAA didnt like it. Judge didnt' want to rock the boat so we are screwed. Cant appeal because it is worthless now with the semifinal done anyways.
 
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Several points to address here:

~The Mentor soccer team, it's fans, and family, have my sympathy. Not that they probably care, but they do have it. They didn't do anything wrong here, and I truly feel bad for them.

~This is not Jackson's fault. A good administrator makes sure everything is done properly, administratively - that's their JOB (hence the word, 'administrator')! Jackson recognized a potential problem when Mentor played two boys that weren't on the roster from the prior game, and contacted the OHSAA, the property authority in this matter, to question if it was legit or not. Had the shoe been on the other foot, I would have EXPECTED Mentor's admin to do the same to Jackson, or I would have felt they weren't doing their job & would want them fired. In addition, how was Jackson supposed to know - for sure - that jackson might even get the forfeit win? For all they and we know, the OHSAA could have simply voided the game and declared Northview the semifinal winner. I'm pretty sure that the OHSAA has done that before, although perhaps not in soccer.

~Mentor's AD - as a good administrator - should have definitely realized that this rule might be open for different interpretations, and thus should have called the OHSAA before the game, to make sure all of his kids could play. Had he done that - this would have NEVER been a problem. I feel that he/she should definitely shoulder at least part of - if not a substantial portion of - the blame here.

~ I hate this rule. It has GOT to be clarified, and perhaps adjusted. I'm not even sure I agree with the court/OHSAA ruling that let Mentor's forfeit stand. It's still ambigous enough to be open for discussion, but alas, we don't have the luxury of time to freely discuss it right now (since the state finals are so close). Jackson may have benefitted from it this time, but we could have easily been on the receiving end (although I'm hoping our admins would be wise enough to check on it, beforehand).

~ As a Jackson fan, I am absolutely delighted in Jackson being in the state finals, and am looking forward to watching the game in person. However, I definitely feel that a lot of the excitement of it is clearly diminished. That sucks, since we are playing for our first ever team state title....bleh.
 
MentorGrad2002 said:
"He just said the bylaw is somewhat vague, and the OHSAA reserves the right to interpret those bylaws for itself. Therefore, the judge said he was in no position to overturn the OHSAA's ruling."[/B]

Which pretty much means "yeah they had the bylaw but since the OHSAA didnt like the wording he cant do anything about it". Sorry but the courts should be the power over the OHSAA.
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That's where we will eternally disagree. The OHSAA is a voluntary membership organization that has its bylaws approved by its membership, including the clearly written bylaws, as well as the vaguely written bylaws. Knowing this, the OHSAA also reserves the ability to interpret any conflicts on bylaw interpretations for itself, because you can't just have mob rule.

Any judge would be foolish to waltz in, and overrule a decision by a voluntary membership organization's (whether that be the OHSAA or the Knights of Columbus or whatever) ruling body on what their bylaws mean when the plain language of the bylaw can be reasonably interpreted more than one way.
 
I have never been someone that blindly takes over case or situation and agrees with it. Courts have been wrong on issues in the past and if everyone just blindly followed everything, the country would be a lot different than it is today.

Look you NEVER agree with me on anything. You arent a Mentor hater like Oilfilter but you will never agree with me on anything. All I know is that wrong wording has kept our boys from being in games they should be in and that is wrong. You can disagree if you want but I am not budging on this issue.

We have the mandatory date but because of wording they swept it under the rug.
 
MentorGrad2002 said:
Look you NEVER agree with me on anything. You arent a Mentor hater like Oilfilter but you will never agree with me on anything. All I know is that wrong wording has kept our boys from being in games they should be in and that is wrong. You can disagree if you want but I am not budging on this issue.
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Look, you're just a Mentor homer who can't handle anyone who disagrees with you, because you have the mentality of a five year old. How many times are you going to say things like, "I'm not going budge?" Why don't you just sprawl on the ground and throw a fit while you're at it?
 
:rolleyes: Mentor homer? Please. I am more hard on the team than most posters on this site. Even in the All Yappi Team thread I argued AGAINST 2 of our players being on the team and said Tanski is the only one who should be on it.

You said we will never agree on this point. I said I wont budge. It is the same thing. I wont budge on one side and you wont on anothe.r You are being a hypocrite if you are accussing me of throwing a fit.

Last time you argued with me over and over about how far I LIVE from Massillon. I had to copy and paste mapquest to shut you up. That proved to me that you will argue over anything.

Yeah I am sure you wouldnt defend an injustice if something like this happened to your school :rolleyes:

Bottom line is I am going to say exactly what happened. Not just what you read. If you really think the media tells the whole story then you are mistaken. And I am not one that is a follower and just settles for whatever the courts or government says. They have been wrong many times in the past. Isnt the first time the OHSAA has been scrutinized. Wording is keeping a team whose school passes one of the bylaws off the field. That is a problem.

Good luck to your team. I hope we have a legit champ who actually earned it on the field rather than in the courtroom.
 
That's where we will eternally disagree. The OHSAA is a voluntary membership organization that has its bylaws approved by its membership, including the clearly written bylaws, as well as the vaguely written bylaws. Knowing this, the OHSAA also reserves the ability to interpret any conflicts on bylaw interpretations for itself, because you can't just have mob rule.

Any judge would be foolish to waltz in, and overrule a decision by a voluntary membership organization's (whether that be the OHSAA or the Knights of Columbus or whatever) ruling body on what their bylaws mean when the plain language of the bylaw can be reasonably interpreted more than one way.

This might be the most clear-thinking post on this whole thread. Thank you for writing it.

I was connected with the Colerain Cardinals football program when it was declared ineligible to play three days before the state finals game. I know the level of pain the Mentor team and fans are feeling.

However, the questions must be asked: Why didn't Mentor do a better job of making sure the two players stayed eligible all year long? Why didn't the Mentor AD call the OHSAA when they knew it was going to be questionable returning these two players at this point in the season?

The best way to resolve an issue like this is to avoid it in the first place.
 
Some as ambiguous as differing between Grading period and Grade reporting period is so ridiculous that they probably didnt feel the need to call the OHSAA. I am surprised that so many just ignore the point that Mentor has the proof that they should fit one of the bylaws but language is the reason they gave for turning us down.

And please enough with the why were they ineligible in the first place. Colerain has had players ineligible too as you said. It is going to happen at most every school. One of the kids was ineligible because his music class didnt count for as much as he thought. Another failed a class last year. It isnt like these are 1.5 gpa students like some ignorant people have been saying elsewhere.
 
MentorGrad2002 said:
Some as ambiguous as differing between Grading period and Grade reporting period is so ridiculous that they probably didnt feel the need to call the OHSAA. I am surprised that so many just ignore the point that Mentor has the proof that they should fit one of the bylaws but language is the reason they gave for turning us down.
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Sorry MentorGrad, I hate to say this, but they are correct. The phrases "grading period" and "grade reporting period" are actually two different timeframes. So, with the OHSAA deciding to suspend the players from the activity and nullify the game based on the wording of the bylaw, they are correct. No court would overturn that ruling. Also, to impose an injunction to allow the game to be played would be just as bad as overturning the ruling.

Just so you know, I'm an innocent bystander. You have to go by the letter of the law and as unfairly as that might sound, it's the truth. My guess is that Mentor will be changing their wording to comply with the OHSAA's wording. It won't be the other way around.
 
MentorGrad2002 said:
"He just said the bylaw is somewhat vague, and the OHSAA reserves the right to interpret those bylaws for itself. Therefore, the judge said he was in no position to overturn the OHSAA's ruling."

Which pretty much means "yeah they had the bylaw but since the OHSAA didnt like the wording he cant do anything about it". Sorry but the courts should be the power over the OHSAA.
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For the edification of anyone still reading this thread, he is quoting the Mentor Superintendent here. This is her spin on the judge's ruling. There is no reason to believe that it is a particularly accurate rendering of the actual ruling.

MentorGrad2002 said:
Some as ambiguous as differing between Grading period and Grade reporting period is so ridiculous that they probably didnt feel the need to call the OHSAA.
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There's nothing ambiguous about the difference between a "grading period" and a "grade reporting date". They are not at all the same thing. Your continued insistence that the difference is semantic at best demonstrates that you are incapable of making an objective analysis.

MentorGrad2002 said:
I am surprised that so many just ignore the point that Mentor has the proof that they should fit one of the bylaws but language is the reason they gave for turning us down.
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If you are so connected to the program and the schools, why don't you get a copy of Mentor's "proof" and post it here?
 
Grading Period - The time period in which a student has to do work to EARN grades. In my opinion, this would be the time from the first day of school, until the last day of the grading period - whether it be a quarter, trimester or semester.

Reporting Period - The time period in which teachers have to REPORT those grades. In my opinion, this would be the time immediately following the grading period, in which teachers have to report on the final grades.

Unquestionably a difference in my book.
 
Hey enjoy your second chance Jackson fan. Just sucks to know that you are getting it without earning it.

You are right they will probably change the wording. Didnt know athletics are suppossed to come down to wording though. THought they were sports. :shrug: Maybe we should crown the state champion based on finding technicalities instead of earning it on th field of play. Since the report cards were received by students on the 5th, it is pretty obvious that the grades were all submitted before the regional final took place. Since the kids passed, the bylaw should work in their favor regardless of what the term says anyways. It is absolutely ridiculous.

You people can justify it all you want but I am sticking with the reasonings I have and think they got screwed.
 
OHSAA Bylaws
Please read bylaw 4-4-3.

The eligibility or ineligibility of a student continues until the start of the fifth school day of the next grading period, at which time the grades from the immediately preceeding grading period becomes effective. For the purposes of this bylaw, "school day" includes faculty in-service days, calamity days, and regular school attendance days but not holidays or school breaks.

Exception 1: Eligibility or ineligibility for the first grading period commences with the start of the fall sports season.

Exception 2: A student coming off "ineligible status" may become eligible 24 hours after the mandatory grade report date established by the Board of Education or other similar governing body for that school's district, provided said grade reporting date is applicable to all students in that district.
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Mentor attempted to use Exception 2. According to Mentor's own superintendent, Mentor had a BOE approved grading period, but NOT a BOE approved grade report date. Had the Mentor BOE said that, 'not only is 10/31 the end of the grading period, but also the last day teachers can report grades', then all this would have been a moot point, as the time to wait would have shrunk to 24 hours (or by Friday). But the Mentor BOE did NOT say that - they only had an approved grading period.

Big difference for this rule, unfortunately.
 
MentorGrad2002 said:
Hey enjoy your second chance Jackson fan. Just sucks to know that you are getting it without earning it.

You are right they will probably change the wording. Didnt know athletics are suppossed to come down to wording though. THought they were sports. :shrug: Maybe we should crown the state champion based on finding technicalities instead of earning it on th field of play. Since the report cards were received by students on the 5th, it is pretty obvious that the grades were all submitted before the regional final took place. Since the kids passed, the bylaw should work in their favor regardless of what the term says anyways. It is absolutely ridiculous.

You people can justify it all you want but I am sticking with the reasonings I have and think they got screwed.
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The more I think about it, the more I see Mentor's AD being in the wrong here.

Whether it's a good rule or not, the bylaw becomes VERY clear once you actually stop and think about what the differences are. The BOE failed to put into a place a REPORTING DATE, which is what this bylaw was insistent on, yet the AD figured the BOE had put a reporting date into place (oops!). They (BOE) merely covered a grading period, something that I hope by now, everyone understands the difference on.
 
MentorGrad2002 said:
Hey enjoy your second chance Jackson fan. Just sucks to know that you are getting it without earning it.
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You keep saying without earning it. So tell me, what the score would have been or even if Mentor would have won without those two kids. The bottom line is Jackson is where the OHSAA thinks they should be.
 
MentorGrad2002 said:
You are right they will probably change the wording. Didnt know athletics are suppossed to come down to wording though. THought they were sports.
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Really? How do you think they fill up a rule book if they aren't using words?

Or maybe a hand ball in the box isn't a PK anymore because, after all, it's only words that make it illegal.

MentorGrad2002 said:
Since the report cards were received by students on the 5th, it is pretty obvious that the grades were all submitted before the regional final took place.
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That's neither obvious nor relevant. Grades could have been submitted on Sunday and been mailed on Monday. More to the point, there still isn't any proof of a district-wide policy regarding a grade reporting date. It's pretty clear that Mentor doesn't have BOE-approved policy that says "All grades must be finalized and submitted on the last day of the grading period." Ergo, they don't meet Exception 2.

MentorGrad2002 said:
Since the kids passed, the bylaw should work in their favor regardless of what the term says anyways. It is absolutely ridiculous.
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Just ignore the law when it doesn't work in your favor?

And what if that did happen? Is that fair to Jackson that you were allowed to break the rules? That would be a much bigger injustice.

It's pretty simple here: Mentor screwed up. You have a well-paid AD. You have a coach. If there was the slightest doubt, either could have called OHSAA for clarification.
 
I have no dog in this fight...and really don't care for soccer...but I clearly see that there is a difference between a "grading period" and a "grade reporting date."

OHSAA is a voluntary group in which all of the members approve the rules and agree to follow the rules as well as the OHSAA's view on what those rules mean.

The Mentor AD should have checked to make sure they were eligible BEFORE letting them dress.

This is no different than McKinley having to forfeit a game because a ineligible player got in for one play when it was "who hasn't played" time at the end of a blowout game. Now McKinley suspended the coach for one game, but really should have penalized the AD staffer who said the kid could dress anyway.

Mentor agreed to the rules, agreed to follow the rules and got caught breaking the rules. It doesn't matter whether it's a good rule, a bad rule, a minor rule or a major rule. If you plan an ineligible player, you forfeit the game.

I might think getting a ticket for rolling through a stop sign is a bad rule, but if a cop catches me doing it, I know I'm getting one.

I hope this is a signal to all Boards of Education to pass a rule clearly stating a "grade reporting date" so everyone can learn from Mentor's mistake.
 
You can blame Jackson. You can blame whoever informed or inquired about the two. You can blame the courts. You can blame the OHSAA . You could even blame your kids for wanting to return. The fact is none of the above are at fault. It is your AD. He needs to be reprimanded in my opinion. I know the rule is a technical one but I have a feeling you will find he is paid close to or over 100k to prevent this from happening. I feel bad for the kids but the two teams are very evenly matched also. It is not as if this game did not go to a shoot out. I hope Jackson wins because I live there but I think you are right to feel frustrated but you need to direct your anger at the proper person. You are letting your AD talk you into blaming others besides himself.
 
Of course, the big question now is if OHSAA will impose any penalties on Mentor for challenging the ruling in court. This could have been an expensive decision for Mentor:

"12-1-4 If a lawsuit is commenced against the OHSAA seeking to enjoin the OHSAA from enforcing any or all of its Constitution, bylaws, sports regulations, decisions of the OHSAA, and an Order from a Court of proper jurisdiction is subsequently either voluntarily vacated, or stayed, or reversed or otherwise determined by the Courts that the equitable relief sought is not or was not justified, the Commissioner may impose any one or more of the following in the interest of restitution and fairness to other member school’s athletes:
(a) Require that individual or team records and performances achieved during such participation be vacated or stricken.
(b) Require that team victories be forfeited to opponent.
(c) Require that team or individual awards earned during such participation be returned to the association.
(d) Require the return of any financial receipts realized from tournament participation.
(e) Impose a monetary penalty commensurate with the expense to the OHSAA for the litigation."
 
Um they could have done all that without us going to court. If we simply said yeah we did it and didnt fight it, it would be the same result. They could still fine, suspend or take away titles/victories. They already did that though. The players hadnt played before the Jackson game. They already took that away and the trophy.

You are just loving this though and will ignore that they virtually did all of that already. The fine is all that is left. Would be nice if you weren't loving this but hey if you have to piggyback other teams because yours arent even in the playoffs, then so be it.

I think it sucks but I am going to concentrate on the football part and hope our volleyball team can win states since they are in the final 4.
 
PantherDad said:
I have no dog in this fight, but if MJ knew about the two players from Mentor not being on the roster earlier in the year then why did it take them until Tuesday morning (the day of the semi-finals) to bring this to someones attention?

This sounds like MJ was waiting till the last second to file in the hopes that Mentor would not have enough time to defend itself. If that's the case, mission accomplished!

Go Hilliard!
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I'm curious, did MJ have team meetings and practice after the regional final or did they just go play the semi-final game cold? Most teams are done after that final loss, but if Jackson actually prepared for the semi-final game after losing the regional final then it would seem obvious that Jackson had intentions of filing a protest and the timing of the actual protest was cold and calculated. If that's the case then I'd say Jackson (albeit within their rights) was not showing good sportsmanship. Jackson should have notified both Mentor and the OHSAA of their intentions. If, on the other hand, there was no practice or game prep by Jackson and the protest was filed only after verifying the rules violation, then ok.

Regardless, it appears that Mentor screwed up by not verifying the rules. At the very least they should have erred on the side of caution and gotten a ruling from the OHSAA prior to the regional final. They could easily have avoided the issue all together.
 
CFIK said:
I'm curious, did MJ have team meetings and practice after the regional final or did they just go play the semi-final game cold? Most teams are done after that final loss, but if Jackson actually prepared for the semi-final game after losing the regional final then it would seem obvious that Jackson had intentions of filing a protest and the timing of the actual protest was cold and calculated. If that's the case then I'd say Jackson (albeit within their rights) was not showing good sportsmanship. Jackson should have notified both Mentor and the OHSAA of their intentions. If, on the other hand, there was no practice or game prep by Jackson and the protest was filed only after verifying the rules violation, then ok.

Regardless, it appears that Mentor screwed up by not verifying the rules. At the very least they should have erred on the side of caution and gotten a ruling from the OHSAA prior to the regional final. They could easily have avoided the issue all together.
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After the game Saturday, the Jackson team disbanded for the season and began to go their separate ways. There was no practice of any kind between Saturday and Tuesday.

At 4:30pm on Tuesday, Jackson's AD received word from the OHSAA that the Bears were going to play on Wednesday evening. The AD immediately contacted the head coach and they began calling players ASAP to gather together and share the news. I cannot confirm it, but I do not believe they were able to get in a practice on Tuesday evening, due to the team notification took most of the late afternoon.

My son (student at JHS) noticed the players practicing near the end of the school day on Wednesday, which as mentioned, I would presume was their first practice since Saturday's game.
 
Nobody has brought it up yet, but the judge who heard the case, Tim Horton, is uniquely qualified to rule on this case.

Horton was the head coach of the Team Ohio U-16 that won the Ohio South State Cup last year and was one goal short of moving onto Nationals. He will coach this year's U-16s again because his son is on that team. Horton has been involved with soccer since he played as a youth and was part of the National program.
 
What polar says is true (isn't it always). The team didn't know until Tuesday that they would be playing.

Is it possible that Jackson notified OHSAA earlier then Tuesday and it just took them that long to investigate and announce what they had found?
 
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