D 1 private schools?

pup pounder said:
Who cares where or why anyone goes anywhere. Free market society. If I want to send my kid to Jackson for their baseball program or their drama club or whatever it should be permitted. Heck, give me me a edchoice voucher to help my family to relocate. Maybe I'm in a dangerous inner city place like Canton and I'm seeking safety for my child or want them to have better overall education. If we're going to give this choice to private schools then it's only right to give public schools the same. I'm sorry. This just makes to much sense.
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Learn how the EdChoice program works before spewing misinformation. Not every school in ohio is eligible for the program. Only the BOTTOM 20% of the schools in ohio (based on quality, Poor rating) are eligible to let their students apply to a qualifying alternate school. Currently for this year in stark county only 2 highschools fall in that category (Massillon and Mckinley). Their are many grade and internediate schools that also apply. Scholarships are limited to $7500 for highschool, are for tuition only, do not “move” families as insinuated. Students are required to meet certain criteria (grading assessments, attendance, etc) in order to keep their scholarship year to year. Yes this is tax dollars but also remember when a parent chooses to send their child to a private school their propert taxes stay at the public school so they are paying double. In other words “some” of those EdChoice tax funding dollars are just transfering taxes paid to schools that are not actually teaching those students.
 
pup pounder said:
No! Private schools offering edchoice/"scholarship" shhhh money to students in and out of state just to play football, which takes those exited schools government money, which is approximately 6 grand, is wrong, especially when the governing OHSAA looks the other way, no questions asked. Considering when public schools that utilize open enrollment correctly are scrutinized and punished for attracting student athletes to their superior programs/ curriculum, and they do it by the rules. If we're going to all allow alumni money to pay for "scholarships" to these super stars with no consequences then let's allow public schools to atleast utilize OE without penalties. Come on people, don't you see the disparity here? "There are none so blind as those who will not see" THE TRUTH!
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There are obviously some false statements in the above:

1) These private schools are NOT taking "those exited schools {sic] government money"; the state legislature has decided (accurately) that that "government money" is the TAXPAYERS' money-- and can (and SHOULD, in the state legislature's estimation) be allowed to follow the STUDENT that the money is intended to educate-- and since the state legislature (and the TAXPAYERS) have an interest in seeing that money spent EFFECTIVELY to educate each student for which the money is allocated, the state legislature has decided that if the local public school, where a student would (nominally) attend by default, is deemed to be "failing"-- by independent, third-party assessments of the progress of the entire student population in that school-- then the state legislature has said that since the state legislature's overriding goal is to be a competent financial steward of the TAXPAYERS' money, it makes eminent sense (and is therefore permissible) for that state TAXPAYER money allocated for the education of students in that school, to be allowed to be re-directed to a NON-FAILING school that any of those students choose to attend instead. It is NOT "wrong"-- it is just good fiscal discipline, on the part of the Ohio state legislature... The Ohio state legislature has deemed ALL TAXPAYER money allocated to schools for educating students, to be "scholarship money"-- and simply said that THAT money is portable-- and can follow the student to which it is allocated, wherever that student chooses to go to school (in OHIO), if that student's local school is deemed to be failing by independent, third-party evaluation-- that seems like a reasonable proposition to me.

Oh, and by the way, ALL FIVE of those remaining Ohio Division I private schools are producing better academic results with their students (EVEN Moeller) than Ms. Washington HS is producing with its students.

2) If a public school (let's just take, oh, say Ms. Washington HS) is "utilizing open enrollment correctly"-- then, that public school would NOT be "punished for attracting student athletes to their 'superior programs/curriculum', and [sic] they do it by the rules"-- the OHSAA does not go about "punishing" public schools willy-nilly for no reason, for following the rules-- the OHSAA IS its member schools-- THEY formed the OHSAA, appoint its officials, and dictate its policies-- and the vast, VAST majority of the OHSAA voting members ARE public schools-- so I HIGHLY DOUBT that the OHSAA is on some vendetta to single out and pick on ANY public school in the state that is utilizing open enrollment and "doing it by the rules"....

Oh, and I'd be interested to hear what elements of Ms. Washington's curriculum are "superior"-- seeing as football is an "extracurricular activity", NOT part of the regular curriculum-- if there is ANY core curriculum class, department, or program at Ms. Washington that has been rated "superior" by any widely respected, third-party evaluator, I'd like to know what it is.
 
pup pounder said:
Who cares where or why anyone goes anywhere. Free market society. If I want to send my kid to Jackson for their baseball program or their drama club or whatever it should be permitted. Heck, give me me a edchoice voucher to help my family to relocate. Maybe I'm in a dangerous inner city place like Canton and I'm seeking safety for my child or want them to have better overall education. If we're going to give this choice to private schools then it's only right to give public schools the same. I'm sorry. This just makes to much sense.
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It appears that you fail to understand the Ed Choice program-- you can do EXACTLY what you are describing above, NOW, if you are living "in a dangerous inner city plan like Canton"-- and the Canton HS is deemed to be failing by an independent third-party evaluation-- then you can choose to go to Ms. Washignton HS (if Ms. Washington HS is "open enrollment")-- and the state TAXPAYER money allocated to the education of you/your student would follow you to Ms. Washington HS-- as long as Ms. Washington HS is not ALSO deemed to be failing, by that same independent, third-party evaluator.
 
pantherland said:
Elder would be the smallest of the 5. I think X has twice as many students as Elder does actually. I think Elder is around 750-800 kids. X has like 1500-1600, Moe has around 900-1000.
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X now has less than 1400 students-- current enrollment is ~1328.
 
Maxie said:
No, but private schools invented the “system?”
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Private schools invented what? The OHSAA has well over 700 (800?) member schools-- the VAST majority of them are (small) public high schools-- the OHSAA is SET UP by its member schools to cater to what those member schools want-- and those member schools, by and large, are small public high schools.
 
John Lee Pettimore said:
See, here's the issue for me. I have said very little about parochial schools and the rules of operation that furnish them with athletic talent. I may make a wise remark here and there but it doesn't fill my day. You know very little (if anything) about the kids that choose to attend Massillon, except what you read from the trolls on here who generally get their asses kicked by the Tigers on a regular basis, just as we know very little about the kids that choose to attend Moeller, Elder, X, St. Ed, Ignatius....etc on down through the divisions. What we DO know....is how the rules are set up and how beneficial it is to parochial schools. Are parochial schools doing anything illegal....sure, some are, but the ones who follow the rules arent, despite what it looks like from the outside. I'm sure SOME break the rules ie sending letters they know are illegal, visiting local schools, having boosters pay tuition, etc....if a 6'4" 280 pound kid from the inner city wants to attend Massillon, we have to jump through hoops, if he wants to attend a parochial school....he gets a scholarship and at at least one school, he could very likely have the remainder of his tuition paid for by an athletic booster (that.... ....the school was.... ....unaware of lol) you don't think it's suspicious when in D1 parochials each go on runs? Moeller, then Iggy, then St x/Elder, now we're on a run of St. Ed....sure there are some factors that give parochials an edge....two parent homes, more discipline in their early years transitions into more discipline later which translates into more coachable kids. This has went on longer than I intended so I'll wrap it up with this....at least for me, I think the rules STRONGLY favor the parochial schools (and the result on the field ABSOLUTELY prove that out, but I don't think (for the most part) that parochials break rules. When you have such a small number of parochials (I know the numbers vary over the years but it's still that small core of Moe, Elder, X, Ed and Iggy) that win an overwhelming amount of titles....well, if you don't see it I can't help you.
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The rules are set up by the OHSAA's member schools-- the vast majority of which are public high schools-- SMALL public high schools. They set up the rules to suit themselves (they vote on rule changes-- like their vote this past year to NOT allow NIL payments to Ohio HS athletes). If the rules favor "parochial" schools (X and Ig are NOT "parochial" schools), then it is NOT the doing of these private schools-- it is the choice of the YUGE group of small public high schools who seem to want the rules they way they are now. It's the reason Ohio has 7 divisions of football, with 6 of them devoted to championships for relatively small high schools-- THAT is who the OHSAA IS!
 
How about this? Have 2 upper divisions for schools that want to get student athletes from anywhere and everywhere. No rules, families aren't forced to get another residence in that district and catholics can carry on or expand. Then have 4-5 divisions for districts that want to do things the way HS sports were originally set up, as an extra curricular, before whacko parents got going? Not all HS want to throw the money some do into football (HS is for academics) set up boosters to attract athletes, pay coaches more than administrators and so on? I think this is win/win.
 
Private schools and open enrollment schools are two sides of the same coin. You should be a closed enrollment system surrounded by open enrollment and private school systems. Try that one on for size.
 
bass10 said:
How about this? Have 2 upper divisions for schools that want to get student athletes from anywhere and everywhere. No rules, families aren't forced to get another residence in that district and catholics can carry on or expand. Then have 4-5 divisions for districts that want to do things the way HS sports were originally set up, as an extra curricular, before whacko parents got going? Not all HS want to throw the money some do into football (HS is for academics) set up boosters to attract athletes, pay coaches more than administrators and so on? I think this is win/win.
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How's this as an alternative? A student and his parents/guardians may send the student to any school that will accept him/her, and he/she is 100% eligible to participate in ALL activities sponsored by that school.
 
Caleb said:
Private schools and open enrollment schools are two sides of the same coin. You should be a closed enrollment system surrounded by open enrollment and private school systems. Try that one on for size.
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Pickerington is one. They do alright in sports.
 
Caleb said:
Private schools and open enrollment schools are two sides of the same coin. You should be a closed enrollment system surrounded by open enrollment and private school systems. Try that one on for size.
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The decision to be "closed enrollment" is ALWAYS the decision of that school system's residents-- NO ONE makes a school district remain "closed enrollment", if they do not wish to be-- so, I'm not sure what your complaint is-- or if you even have one.
 
Caleb said:
Private schools and open enrollment schools are two sides of the same coin. You should be a closed enrollment system surrounded by open enrollment and private school systems. Try that one on for size.
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As this is a D1 topic, I believe the last open enrollment state champion was Lima Senior in 1996. Doesn't seem like a big problem.
 
queencitybuckeye said:
How's this as an alternative? A student and his parents/guardians may send the student to any school that will accept him/her, and he/she is 100% eligible to participate in ALL activities sponsored by that school.
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Some schools get a couple of OE athletes here and there, the ones that get 6-10 every year then think its all equal. OE was not designed for athletes to transfer. There obviously would need to be some things to work out for it to work but I think it would allow districts that are proud of their team made up of kids that go there for a year or two and districts that are made up of 99% of kids that grew up there and been together their whole life. There's gonna be the naysayers but you can't expect a once in a decade great team to be able to compete against a team with studs from 5-6 counties. Well you can but if your heads out you wouldn't expect it on average.
 
4GX said:
There are obviously some false statements in the above:

1) These private schools are NOT taking "those exited schools {sic] government money"; the state legislature has decided (accurately) that that "government money" is the TAXPAYERS' money-- and can (and SHOULD, in the state legislature's estimation) be allowed to follow the STUDENT that the money is intended to educate-- and since the state legislature (and the TAXPAYERS) have an interest in seeing that money spent EFFECTIVELY to educate each student for which the money is allocated, the state legislature has decided that if the local public school, where a student would (nominally) attend by default, is deemed to be "failing"-- by independent, third-party assessments of the progress of the entire student population in that school-- then the state legislature has said that since the state legislature's overriding goal is to be a competent financial steward of the TAXPAYERS' money, it makes eminent sense (and is therefore permissible) for that state TAXPAYER money allocated for the education of students in that school, to be allowed to be re-directed to a NON-FAILING school that any of those students choose to attend instead. It is NOT "wrong"-- it is just good fiscal discipline, on the part of the Ohio state legislature... The Ohio state legislature has deemed ALL TAXPAYER money allocated to schools for educating students, to be "scholarship money"-- and simply said that THAT money is portable-- and can follow the student to which it is allocated, wherever that student chooses to go to school (in OHIO), if that student's local school is deemed to be failing by independent, third-party evaluation-- that seems like a reasonable proposition to me.

Oh, and by the way, ALL FIVE of those remaining Ohio Division I private schools are producing better academic results with their students (EVEN Moeller) than Ms. Washington HS is producing with its students.

2) If a public school (let's just take, oh, say Ms. Washington HS) is "utilizing open enrollment correctly"-- then, that public school would NOT be "punished for attracting student athletes to their 'superior programs/curriculum', and [sic] they do it by the rules"-- the OHSAA does not go about "punishing" public schools willy-nilly for no reason, for following the rules-- the OHSAA IS its member schools-- THEY formed the OHSAA, appoint its officials, and dictate its policies-- and the vast, VAST majority of the OHSAA voting members ARE public schools-- so I HIGHLY DOUBT that the OHSAA is on some vendetta to single out and pick on ANY public school in the state that is utilizing open enrollment and "doing it by the rules"....

Oh, and I'd be interested to hear what elements of Ms. Washington's curriculum are "superior"-- seeing as football is an "extracurricular activity", NOT part of the regular curriculum-- if there is ANY core curriculum class, department, or program at Ms. Washington that has been rated "superior" by any widely respected, third-party evaluator, I'd like to know what it is.
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Well I learned something thanks..to my knowledge the private school my 3 student athletes attended (McNick) doesn’t do EdChoice. I kind of wish they did for the athletic depts sake (since this is Yappi). The school sits in MT Washington Cincinnati neighborhood which I believe sends kids to Withrow. I don’t know if Withrow is deemed “failing” or not but overall other then Walnut Hills the city schools are rated rather poorly. The other small schools witin the city limits, Purcell Marian/ Roger Bacon I‘m certain accept EdChoice.
 
Closed enrollment isn't as it seems, especially for some of the larger suburban districts which have a number of apartment complexes/rental properties. It is easy to change residence by renting an apartment and remain eligible with no loss of playing time.

Whether it's open enrollment or closed enrollment with a large number of rental properties, or vouchers and scholarships, they are all forms of player accumulation.
 
pup pounder said:
Give choice vouchers to help public kids go where they want. You know this will never fly. Closed enrollment schools would flip out.
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Well, there's a possibility that "choice vouchers to help public kids go where they want" could happen. Are you familiar with the Backpack Bill? It is a piece of legislation being workshopped and pushed that is standing front-and-center of the 'school choice' movement in Ohio today.

Regardless... I think the "closed enrollment schools would flip out" belief is, well, flimsy.

What are reasons that schools are closed enrollment in the first place? Primarily capacity reasons, I suspect, but also likely a firm belief that you ought to live in the district to attend. The majority of these places are considerably wealthy. On the surface they might care a little with funds leaving the district, but the majority of these places have pretty competitive academics/extracurriculars, superb facilities and enough "draw" to attract -- and retain -- its families. In other words, they likely don't stand much to lose in the student game in that hypothetical.

Also, they probably don't give two craps about how it may make a small dent in athletics.


Here's a list of closed enrollment school districts in Ohio...

Anthony Wayne
Aurora
Avon
Avon Lake
Bay Village
Beachwood
Beavercreek
Bedford
Berea
Bexley
Boardman
Brecksville-Broadview Heights
Bridgeport
Brooklyn
Brookville
Brunswick
Campbell
Canfield
Canton City
Centerville
Cleveland Heights
Copley
Cuyahoga Heights
Deer Park
Dublin
Euclid
Fairborn
Fairview Park
Finneytown
Forest Hills (Winton Woods)
Fort Loramie
Gahanna-Jefferson
Garfield Heights
Grandview Heights
Granville
Groveport
Hamilton Local (which is Hamilton Township)
Highland Local (Medina County)
Hilliard
Huber Heights
Hudson
Independence
Indian Hill
Jackson Local (the Jackson that is in Stark County)
Kettering
Kirtland
Lake Local (Stark County)
Lakewood (Cuyahoga County)
Lebanon
Lexington
Loveland
Madeira
Maple Heights
Mariemont
Mayfield
Medina
Mentor
Miamisburg
Middle Bass (???)
Mt. Healthy
New Albany
Nordonia
North Bass (Kelley's Island?)
North Canton
North Olmsted
North Royalton
Northmont
Northwest (Colerain)
Norwood
Oak Hills
Oakwood
Olentangy
Olmsted Falls
Orange
Ottawa Hills
Parma
Perry Local (Lake County)
Perrysburg
Pickerington
Plain Local (GlenOak)
Poland
Put-in-Bay
Revere
Rocky River
Ross
Shaker Heights
Solon
South Euclid-Lyndhurst (Brush)
Southwest Licking (Watkins Memorial)
Southwestern City Schools
Springboro
Springfield (Lucas County)
Springfield (Mahoning County)
Strongsville
Sycamore
Sylvania
Tallmadge
Tipp City
Twinsburg
Upper Arlington
Valley View
Van Buren
Vandalia-Butler
Westerville
Westlake
Whitehall
Wickliffe
Willoughby-Eastlake
Worthington
Wyoming
 
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John Lee Pettimore said:
The problem is he never includes the transfers HIS school receives, (his entire starting backfield were transfers an few years ago). He never includes the rest of his league. (McKinley's starting QB and a RB who "transferred" 2 weeks before the season.) Perry wrestlers from Carrollton, Jackson, Lake, St. Paris Graham, California, Texas & Russia to name a few....Hoover girls sports....etc....So, his facts aren't balanced. THAT is why his is an obsession. Thanks for playing.
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The point is Massillon has been recruiting for over a century.
 
bass10 said:
Some schools get a couple of OE athletes here and there, the ones that get 6-10 every year then think its all equal. OE was not designed for athletes to transfer. There obviously would need to be some things to work out for it to work but I think it would allow districts that are proud of their team made up of kids that go there for a year or two and districts that are made up of 99% of kids that grew up there and been together their whole life. There's gonna be the naysayers but you can't expect a once in a decade great team to be able to compete against a team with studs from 5-6 counties. Well you can but if your heads out you wouldn't expect it on average.
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I think the system should be designed for something more important than state titles, which 600+ of the football-playing schools will NEVER achieve, no matter the rules. IOW, I don't give a flaming f___ about the level playing field crap.
 
bass10 said:
How about this? Have 2 upper divisions for schools that want to get student athletes from anywhere and everywhere. No rules, families aren't forced to get another residence in that district and catholics can carry on or expand. Then have 4-5 divisions for districts that want to do things the way HS sports were originally set up, as an extra curricular, before whacko parents got going? Not all HS want to throw the money some do into football (HS is for academics) set up boosters to attract athletes, pay coaches more than administrators and so on? I think this is win/win.
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There may be, like, 50-75 schools in the entire state that do things "the way HS sports were originally set up." And, 11 of them are in the MAC. People can say whatever about open enrollment/boundaryless, but they're incorrect in stating it is/was what changed the ethos and intent of high school sports.

What changed everything was when public schools, writ large, became greatly image-conscious about their sports. This phenomenon has origins that go back a couple decades, others that are generally "new" happenings...

1) AD's stopped being simple, public servants to their community who made sure refs got paid and that coaches weren't hurting kids. Emphases put toward "winning" changed the game of athletic administration: public school AD's today have to be talent acquisition specialists (they have to hire 'the BEST' coaches), they have to respond to commands concerning talent retention (advocate for facility and equipment improvement, because that's what coaches want.) Gone are the days of coaches already being a district teacher. Gone, too, are the days where there wasn't a meaningful difference between schools of equal size in the eyes of prospective coaching candidates.

2) When a school was in a conference, they stayed in a conference. They weren't changing leagues unless they were really big or really small (player safety; ability to be competitive in the face of extreme numbers differences) compared to the rest of the league. That's unlike what happens today, where most schools care about winning and competitiveness to the point they'll change leagues, or use it as a kernel for future league formation.

3) Didn't have pushes for fieldhouses, and other "nice to have" things like massive weight-room expansions or the race-to-turf-every-playing-surface. Everyone wants to keep up with the Jones's these days. There also wasn't a run on having the newest, most stylish uniforms every 1-2 years.

I don't have a firm opinion as to whether any, or all, of those changes over generations were for the improvement or detriment of high school sports. But they are changes. And they're changes that are pretty cut-and-dry as to why they happened. There's haves and have-nots in every facet of Ohio education in the public sphere. Sports have become an extension of that disparity. Not making a judgment, either, as to whether that disparity is a good thing: but, we're in a mobile society. We are. Open enrollment and school choice exist for "separation from the situation" purposes. Too many kids and their families have reasons for changing schools where athletics are not the primary motivation behind the change. The OHSAA legislates movement enough as it is. Frankly, for sports purposes, the majority of Ohio public schools have it way better with the current state of affairs. And it's not going to get any better with change or "new ideas" like separation.
 
queencitybuckeye said:
I think the system should be designed for something more important than state titles, which 600+ of the football-playing schools will NEVER achieve, no matter the rules. IOW, I don't give a flaming f___ about the level playing field crap.
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Then get rid of post season altogether! You don't care because the school you support most likely benefits greatly from the broken system.
 
Irwin20 said:
Well I learned something thanks..to my knowledge the private school my 3 student athletes attended (McNick) doesn’t do EdChoice. I kind of wish they did for the athletic depts sake (since this is Yappi). The school sits in MT Washington Cincinnati neighborhood which I believe sends kids to Withrow. I don’t know if Withrow is deemed “failing” or not but overall other then Walnut Hills the city schools are rated rather poorly. The other small schools witin the city limits, Purcell Marian/ Roger Bacon I‘m certain accept EdChoice.
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McNicholas High School is a provider for the State of Ohio EdChoice Scholarship Program.
Guardian Angels School and IHM do as well.
 
tom 48 said:
I was wondering why the vitriol coming from the Massillon posters, until I realized that the team lost to Moeller and faces the prospect of being beaten by St. Edward, probably the only two blemishes on its record this year. It makes sense now. But, if this is a major concern, then lobby your AD not to schedule them. Case solved and you won't have to worry.
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Then people like you will whine that we don’t play anybody. 🙄
 
bass10 said:
Some schools get a couple of OE athletes here and there, the ones that get 6-10 every year then think its all equal. OE was not designed for athletes to transfer. There obviously would need to be some things to work out for it to work but I think it would allow districts that are proud of their team made up of kids that go there for a year or two and districts that are made up of 99% of kids that grew up there and been together their whole life. There's gonna be the naysayers but you can't expect a once in a decade great team to be able to compete against a team with studs from 5-6 counties. Well you can but if your heads out you wouldn't expect it on average.
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Where would your team be this year without transfers?
 
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