Central Catholic League... no more?

The Dock

Well-known member
Post by AHM (pretty reliable poster) in another thread suggests that Hartley, DeSales and Watterson are going to the OCC, with St Charles opting into the MSL.

Anyone know more about this? Any thoughts if indeed this is happening?
 

ghsknightsfan

Well-known member
maybe a little small for the league for sure, but can most certainly compete. if they are going to add some D3 schools, might as well give London and Jonathan Alder out of the CBC a look. Maybe even Zanesville. id say Granville would be a home run but they are in a great league for them.
 
Only way I see this happening is if there is another division that is created for the three CCL teams to play in.

They all have good programs, but they know that it isn't the smartest to sign up to play schools that have twice as much in enrollment and in some cases twice as many kids playing football in the school.

St. Charles might actually go along for this.... only downside is that they would be more of a bottom-feeder than they already are.
 

RollingTrain

Active member
There was some smoke on those three along with Teays Valley but I don't see this happening. I don't think there was much interest on the Teays Valley side other than listening.
 

RollingTrain

Active member
maybe a little small for the league for sure, but can most certainly compete. if they are going to add some D3 schools, might as well give London and Jonathan Alder out of the CBC a look. Maybe even Zanesville. id say Granville would be a home run but they are in a great league for them.
Zanesville going to the LCL helps Granville get rid of the smaller LCL schools on the schedule. Right now I don't know what's wrong with Licking Heights and Watkins - each of those schools should be much better in football than they are.

Alder isn't going to get in a league with Hartley, Watterson and DeSales.
 
I think that this move would be cool to see. The OCC schools have had some great battles with DeSales over the years (Gahanna, New Albany(Really great series), Westerville Central, etc.) but it is tough for the privates because they just do not have the bodies that some of these other schools have.

I wish Ready was still as good as they were in 2013. A five team CCL would be something that all of the teams would benefit from, especially considering the old school rivalries.

I would rather see some sort of "CCL vs City League" and "CCL vs OCC" Challenge where teams play like week 1 or week 2 and would make for some noteworthy local games.
 

The Dock

Well-known member
If indeed this were to happen, I'm led to think it would be a largely beneficial move for those three. At current, these schools are travelling considerable lengths to fill out the schedules and "solutions" that were tried to remedy the scheduling, such as the GCL/CCL challenge (forget the name of it, the "Catholic Alliance"?), seem to be only good for having a consistent set of opponents.

From a competition standpoint: I don't think Hartley or DeSales are going to be facing the "bodies" issue any time soon. Watterson I don't think would either, but may be the most likely of the three to have that long-term issue. Regardless, there's a great number of schools in the OCC that dwarf those three in numbers but have a product at the level of, or probably lesser, than those three in football. All other sports, those three would stand to benefit greatly. And think of the contests in some of those sports! Baseball, basketball, girls soccer, volleyball, etc. Both the OCC publics and the CCL schools would stand great benefit from a break in the otherwise monotonous soup of their at-current league play.

Consider all of the BW, SFD and BH alums of yesteryear who have kids at the publics these days. Would raise the stakes from a competition perspective, and these three would stand to be more relevant (and as more appealing of an option to enroll into) in the Central Ohio scene than they currently do.

<Not trying to necessarily pick one side of this hypothetical over the over, but I do see tremendous upside in this idea and am inclined to think the folks at these schools share some of my thoughts as well. The CCL is great, but it has become increasingly untenable in terms of being a league that the member schools have their athletic interests best maximized by. At least as a primary league; as a secondary league (agreeing to schedule each other non-conference) it would still be solid and fulfill the mission behind the league, but the schools are faced with several challenges from the league perspective that either didn't exist 10-15 years ago OR which existed 10-15 years ago but the complications of said challenges haven't risen to the surface and become more evident until recent years.
 

RollingTrain

Active member
I would highly, highly doubt this takes place. There's enough dissent in the OCC as it is. Adding three private schools certainly won't help the cause.

The only way I can see something taking place is if the biggest or smallest OCC schools break away and go on their own. Then the biggies may look to the private schools.
 

yipyap

Member
Zanesville going to the LCL helps Granville get rid of the smaller LCL schools on the schedule. Right now I don't know what's wrong with Licking Heights and Watkins - each of those schools should be much better in football than they are.

Alder isn't going to get in a league with Hartley, Watterson and DeSales.
Licking Heights under Darren Waters has been successful for quite some time. He left with a very successful recorded.
 
If indeed this were to happen, I'm led to think it would be a largely beneficial move for those three. At current, these schools are travelling considerable lengths to fill out the schedules and "solutions" that were tried to remedy the scheduling, such as the GCL/CCL challenge (forget the name of it, the "Catholic Alliance"?), seem to be only good for having a consistent set of opponents.

From a competition standpoint: I don't think Hartley or DeSales are going to be facing the "bodies" issue any time soon. Watterson I don't think would either, but may be the most likely of the three to have that long-term issue. Regardless, there's a great number of schools in the OCC that dwarf those three in numbers but have a product at the level of, or probably lesser, than those three in football. All other sports, those three would stand to benefit greatly. And think of the contests in some of those sports! Baseball, basketball, girls soccer, volleyball, etc. Both the OCC publics and the CCL schools would stand great benefit from a break in the otherwise monotonous soup of their at-current league play.

Consider all of the BW, SFD and BH alums of yesteryear who have kids at the publics these days. Would raise the stakes from a competition perspective, and these three would stand to be more relevant (and as more appealing of an option to enroll into) in the Central Ohio scene than they currently do.

<Not trying to necessarily pick one side of this hypothetical over the over, but I do see tremendous upside in this idea and am inclined to think the folks at these schools share some of my thoughts as well. The CCL is great, but it has become increasingly untenable in terms of being a league that the member schools have their athletic interests best maximized by. At least as a primary league; as a secondary league (agreeing to schedule each other non-conference) it would still be solid and fulfill the mission behind the league, but the schools are faced with several challenges from the league perspective that either didn't exist 10-15 years ago OR which existed 10-15 years ago but the complications of said challenges haven't risen to the surface and become more evident until recent years.
What challenges didn't exist 10-15 years ago? or are recently rising to the surface?
 

bucksman

Moderator
TheDock is probably referring to problems with consistently scheduling weeks four through ten of the football season.
 

dhsdog06

Active member
TheDock is probably referring to problems with consistently scheduling weeks four through ten of the football season.
They aren't doing that now. CCL games are almost always played weeks 6, 8, and 10, so they're filling weeks 1-5 (doable) plus 7 and 9.
 

ReadyKnightsFan

Active member
TheDock is probably referring to problems with consistently scheduling weeks four through ten of the football season.
This really is an issue, I know in the last 15 years or so Ready had to schedule teams from: Michigan, West Virginia, Illinois, New York, Canada, Kentucky, etc just to fill out the schedule. The MSL has lightened that load.
 
Weeks 1-5 have never been too challenging especially with many OCC schools willing to play. The big challenge is trying to find games for the week 7 and 9 slots. Many leagues are in the heart of action at that point in the season.

I think the CCL would benefit from having Ready as a part of the group but I understand why they may not want to be in with the others.
 

The Dock

Well-known member
Weeks 1-5 have never been too challenging especially with many OCC schools willing to play. The big challenge is trying to find games for the week 7 and 9 slots. Many leagues are in the heart of action at that point in the season.

I think the CCL would benefit from having Ready as a part of the group but I understand why they may not want to be in with the others.
Ready is 7-7 against the MSL these last two years, with a mark of 2-7 against MSL teams finishing above .500. When they were in the CCL they were just playing Hartley in the previous Gold/Silver alignment.

As much as the 5-team round robin format for the CCL would be enjoyable and ideal, it’s just not practical for really any parties past alleviating some scheduling issues. Not practical for playoff & competitive purposes, usually.
 

The Dock

Well-known member
What challenges didn't exist 10-15 years ago? or are recently rising to the surface?
One example is the increased difficulty and lengths Hartley has to go to fill out the ten game schedule. This is largely an issue of not just availability but also an opponent’s willingness to play. 10-15 years ago Hartley could get contracts with Madison County schools, Bexley, Centennial, Johnstown Northridge etc no problem. Now? They have to go to North Canton, Austintown Fitch, Lima, Indianapolis some years and some years they have to ink one-year deals with teams like East Cleveland Shaw, teams from Pittsburgh and Michigan that bring no fans. Then there’s the other scheduling issue with so few league games: the opportunity for assymmetric home / away slates. They had a season recently where they didn’t have a home game until week 7 (only three home games, and one was a club team.)

Another issue worsening the scheduling woes is the Competitive Balance factor, where the margin for error come playoff qualification time is harder for DeSales. And getting teams to schedule SFD, BW, and BH is tough! The Walsh Jesuits, Ursulines have no problem scheduling them but they’re both down and far away. And for SFD, BW and BH theres always the tough luck of St Charles not nabbing them many L2 points.

I’m told baseball and softball scheduling has been hell for the CCL teams when rainouts happens, making reschedules tough.
 
One example is the increased difficulty and lengths Hartley has to go to fill out the ten game schedule. This is largely an issue of not just availability but also an opponent’s willingness to play. 10-15 years ago Hartley could get contracts with Madison County schools, Bexley, Centennial, Johnstown Northridge etc no problem. Now? They have to go to North Canton, Austintown Fitch, Lima, Indianapolis some years and some years they have to ink one-year deals with teams like East Cleveland Shaw, teams from Pittsburgh and Michigan that bring no fans. Then there’s the other scheduling issue with so few league games: the opportunity for assymmetric home / away slates. They had a season recently where they didn’t have a home game until week 7 (only three home games, and one was a club team.)

Another issue worsening the scheduling woes is the Competitive Balance factor, where the margin for error come playoff qualification time is harder for DeSales. And getting teams to schedule SFD, BW, and BH is tough! The Walsh Jesuits, Ursulines have no problem scheduling them but they’re both down and far away. And for SFD, BW and BH theres always the tough luck of St Charles not nabbing them many L2 points.

I’m told baseball and softball scheduling has been hell for the CCL teams when rainouts happens, making reschedules tough.
I see what you are saying from the competition point of view. In all honesty I think Ready has had better teams in the past decade then St. Charles has. I know that isn't saying a ton, but it is something. As for scheduling, this is all true. DeSales was especially hurting when both SC and Watterson were getting 2 wins a year. SC is a drag because of the fact that they just cannot win games.

I know it is tough from a competition stand point but for the sake of the schools some solution has to come together. The second half of the season is getting challenging. There has to be a reason for fans to come out to games. The local rivalries are great and I would love the idea of an OCC vs CCL challenge.

Imagine this:

DeSales vs Gahanna/New Albany
Hartley vs Pick North
Watterson vs UA
SC vs Berlin/Bradley

I think an annual setup like this would be worthwhile for the schools, especially early in the season.
 

Crossblock

New member
I don't know if OCC schools want to highlight games against teams that local kids drive out of their home suburbs to attend and then possibly get beat by that team and have other kids in the home suburb get the same idea.
 

TCSoup

Active member
I don't know if OCC schools want to highlight games against teams that local kids drive out of their home suburbs to attend and then possibly get beat by that team and have other kids in the home suburb get the same idea.
i think thats a misguided statement. There are catholic 1-8 Grade schools all across the City and some in the Suburbs. those kids don't belong to the Public School system anymore than kids in Public 1-8 belong to the Catholic HS. Nobody owns students their parents will send them where they think is best for them. And I believe the Catholic Schools today probably have a higher % of their 8th grade kids especially boys going on to the local Public schools than ever before.
 

sapientia et veritas

Well-known member
I think Ready was the only one having problems. Hartley is fine. The scheduling against NEO was aspirational. Burchfield was beside himself with glee scheduling against the Federal League. The city league is done with us. Over all things - a volleyball match. It's unlikely that they'll ever schedule Hartley again. I think there may have been a chance of an ongoing series if Haffele had stayed at MF. I think Hartley AD calls every OCC school every year and almost always gets a no. After embarrassing Kilbourne and Central Crossing, I think the rest were put on notice. The big schools want nothing to do with the Hawks. There's no upside. They're happy with sticking with scrimmages and JV/freshman games. But Burchfield has friendly relationships with a lot of coaches in town, so anything is possible - like Gahanna. We don't take anyone away from their program, and they know that. As far as joining the league, I don't think so. With CBP, a lot of the programs are already facing CCL teams in their own playoffs other than the big two - boys FB and BB. I think that long term, the smartest move for everyone GCL-coed and NCL (and their assorted leftovers) and the Youngstown independents is to expand the alliance. It's good insurance against separation. I'm actually surprised that Harvest said yes, but that's a good move too.
 

WJ-OSU-STEELERS

Active member
Hartley’s success over the last 10 years speaks for itself and I agree, it does the bigger OCC schools little to schedule Hartley (and it’s a game most could very well lose). However to say Hartley ‘put the OCC on notice’ for beating GC Central Crossing & Worthington Kilbourne in 2016 & 2017 I completely disagree with.
*2017 GC CC was 3-7 with w’s over 1-9 Westland, 1-9 Grive City & a forfeit vs UA
*2017 Kilbourne was 3-7 with w’a over 4-6 Big Walnut, 4-6 Worthington & 3-7 Delaware
*2016 GC CC was 2-8 with w’s over 0-10 Westland & 0-10 Grove City
*2016 Kilbourne was 5-5 with w’s over 4-6 Delaware, 0-10 Worthington, 2-8 Big Walnut and two respectible w’s over 6-5 Olentangy Orange & 10-3 Hamilton Township

Sorry but Hartley did what they or any good team should have done vs two bad teams in GC CC & Kilbourne in 2017 & 2016, I don’t think that sent shock waves through the big boys of the OCC. If anything this year’s w over Gahanna was way more impressive.

Hope the CCL is able to stay together, I assumed their alliance with the GCL Co-Ed was suppose to help with scheduling. I just can’t see St Charles being ok with playing in the MSL and coming in 2nd, 3rd or worse. Not that football is a peiority but the optics of it doesn’t look good from St Charles perspective.
 

AHM

Member
I got this information from two high ranking OCC Athletic Directors. They stated that they were bracing for Newark to leave the OCC and the 3 big CCL schools have inquired about joining the OCC and St Charles and Ready were going to go to the Mid State League.

Hartley Desales and Watterson would all be competitive with OCC schools and the resumes those schools bring would raise the profile of the OCC even further.

It makes sense too. Hartley Desales and Watterson have separated from the other two CCL teams and they always have serious scheduling issues which will continue to get worse. It also makes sense that there are several ADs and Principals in the OCC that have deep ties to the CCL.
 

sapientia et veritas

Well-known member
It was the manner of the wins in 2016. 35-0 at half vs Central Crossing. 31-0 at half vs Worthington Kilbourne. The blowouts surprised all central Ohio football observers.

St Charles doesn't care about sports optics, and I doubt that 90% of their parents know the difference between a CCL and an MSL.
 

WJ-OSU-STEELERS

Active member
We’ll just have to agree to disagree about the wins in 2016 & 2017 over GC Central Crossing & Worthington Kilbourne. GC CC has only 2 winning seasons in its 17 years of football, Kilbourne has had some success but it’s safe to say they are definitely a bottom half, perhaps even bottom third football program in the OCC. Hartley’s regular season tilts vs Coldwater and Clinton Massie - those are season/program defining type games not a game vs GC CC (unless you lose to them).

Football wise Hartley, Watterson & DeSales would be fine in just about any OCC Division. Ready & St Charles would benefit being in the MSL. However for other sports I don’t know how well it works for St Charles, I would think their prestige/ego would take a hit. Like you said, St Charles probably doesn’t care but wait until they go to an away golf or tennis match vs a MSL team.
 

bsee54321

Member
We’ll just have to agree to disagree about the wins in 2016 & 2017 over GC Central Crossing & Worthington Kilbourne. GC CC has only 2 winning seasons in its 17 years of football, Kilbourne has had some success but it’s safe to say they are definitely a bottom half, perhaps even bottom third football program in the OCC. Hartley’s regular season tilts vs Coldwater and Clinton Massie - those are season/program defining type games not a game vs GC CC (unless you lose to them).

Football wise Hartley, Watterson & DeSales would be fine in just about any OCC Division. Ready & St Charles would benefit being in the MSL. However for other sports I don’t know how well it works for St Charles, I would think their prestige/ego would take a hit. Like you said, St Charles probably doesn’t care but wait until they go to an away golf or tennis match vs a MSL team.
Adding St Charles and Ready as full time MSL members would allow Grandview Hts to move back to Cardinal Division. Possible MSL set up with St Charles and Ready joining for Football.
Buckeye Division
Circleville, Logan Elm, Teays Valley, Fairfiel Union, Bloom Carroll, Liberty Union (could remain in Ohio for Football only), Amanda Clearcreek and Hamilton Twp.
Ohio Division
St Charles, Ready, Whitehall, Bexley, Buckeye Valley, Columbus Academy, Harvest Prep
Cardinal Division
Berne Union, Lancaster Fisher, Grandview Hts, Miller, Grove City Chrisitian, Fairfield Christian, Worthington Christian

Worthington Christian in Ohio for All Sports except Football- Cardinal
Zanesville Rosecrans in Cardinal- playing 8 man football
Harvest Prep in Ohio for football- Cardinal in all other sports
Wellington School in Ohio for All Sports
Millersport is Cardinal but no football
Columbus School for Girls plays in Ohio Division.
 

ghsknightsfan

Well-known member
Adding St Charles and Ready as full time MSL members would allow Grandview Hts to move back to Cardinal Division. Possible MSL set up with St Charles and Ready joining for Football.
Buckeye Division
Circleville, Logan Elm, Teays Valley, Fairfiel Union, Bloom Carroll, Liberty Union (could remain in Ohio for Football only), Amanda Clearcreek and Hamilton Twp.
Ohio Division
St Charles, Ready, Whitehall, Bexley, Buckeye Valley, Columbus Academy, Harvest Prep
Cardinal Division
Berne Union, Lancaster Fisher, Grandview Hts, Miller, Grove City Chrisitian, Fairfield Christian, Worthington Christian

Worthington Christian in Ohio for All Sports except Football- Cardinal
Zanesville Rosecrans in Cardinal- playing 8 man football
Harvest Prep in Ohio for football- Cardinal in all other sports
Wellington School in Ohio for All Sports
Millersport is Cardinal but no football
Columbus School for Girls plays in Ohio Division.
I was really skeptical about this idea at first but it actually looks good. I would still swap Grandview and Harvest Prep. Circleville and Teays Valley probably shouldn't be in the league in my opinion- I wouldn't mind them in the FAC.
 

ReadyKnightsFan

Active member
Adding St Charles and Ready as full time MSL members would allow Grandview Hts to move back to Cardinal Division. Possible MSL set up with St Charles and Ready joining for Football.
Buckeye Division
Circleville, Logan Elm, Teays Valley, Fairfiel Union, Bloom Carroll, Liberty Union (could remain in Ohio for Football only), Amanda Clearcreek and Hamilton Twp.
Ohio Division
St Charles, Ready, Whitehall, Bexley, Buckeye Valley, Columbus Academy, Harvest Prep
Cardinal Division
Berne Union, Lancaster Fisher, Grandview Hts, Miller, Grove City Chrisitian, Fairfield Christian, Worthington Christian

Worthington Christian in Ohio for All Sports except Football- Cardinal
Zanesville Rosecrans in Cardinal- playing 8 man football
Harvest Prep in Ohio for football- Cardinal in all other sports
Wellington School in Ohio for All Sports
Millersport is Cardinal but no football
Columbus School for Girls plays in Ohio Division.
I would think Grandview Heights and Harvest Prep should be switched but outside of that it looks good to me.
 
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