All the head ref had to say was “I didn’t see it” and that would be the end of the discussion. You cannot award points based on what other people say they saw, or even what actually happened. The ref was clearly focused on whether or not to award a reversal. He didn’t see the near fall criteria let alone have any clue what the count may or may not have been.
Brown v McKinney near fall controversy
- Thread starter kbiz
- Start date
He would have if he was even thinking this way. He never saw the near fall for Brown at any point. He was told by the assistant to award the near fall. He was taking his assistants word for it.
There is a big problem in Ohio with refs not understanding high level moves and making the wrong call. That was definitively a Jonsey tilt and McKinney should have been awarded 2+3. St. Ed’s coach definitely knew that move as his kids have been hitting it for years. I watched a ref at Central district give a kid a penalty point for an illegal move because he leg cradled his opponent. The guy never saw a leg cradle before? In another match a kid had a cradle locked up and the same ref called techfall instead of letting him finish his pinning combination for the fall. It’s a travesty anytime but especially in higher level matches. Not sure what the solution is but it’s a problem.
LucMurphy134
Well-known member
For what it’s worth, from my buddy who is a NCAA Ref…
“Technically the call was probably right but the officiating mechanics were off.
There was not enough displayed control for a reversal in either attempt. However the lead official should have been looking for the exposure on the bottom man. Kind of unfair to award the nearfall with giving the bottom guy any warning. “
“Technically the call was probably right but the officiating mechanics were off.
There was not enough displayed control for a reversal in either attempt. However the lead official should have been looking for the exposure on the bottom man. Kind of unfair to award the nearfall with giving the bottom guy any warning. “
jj150
Active member
I said this earlier, Watch the second ref in the video. He watched/listened to the Ed’s coach during the first turn. And that is the ref who actually made the call. He took his eyes off the match to look at and listen to Ed’s coaches. At the stalemate he went to head ref with Ed’s coaches concerns as he didn’t see it. Congrats to Ed’s coaches for getting that call
I agree 100% Mckinney got screwed, and to have it happen in the finals is just awful. I'm tired of officials complaining about being yelled at by coaches and parents, make the right calls and stop trying to dictate the outcome of a match!! Watched it at the Hoover district and it was pathetic how officials feel the need to inject themselves into a match..
snapspinscore
Well-known member
Brown clearly reverses him after the fact anyway, so at best case scenario for McKinney, it was 5-5 with Brown back on top. No way to give McKinney full 5 count even if he got the reversal and swipes. So 2+2 then gets reversed back again plain as day. If it wasn’t for the fact that Brown completely out wrestled McKinney for the entire match up to that, I’d have more sympathy, but if you want to concede McKinney hit a jonesy and got 2+2, fine. Still got reversed back and 5-5 is your score.
The absence of the ref backers speaks volumes. This is sad. Surprised the lecture on doing it yourself hasnt come up yet. This was a state final for crying out loud. A jonesy isn't new and it isn't even some high level move. Hell, my son got hit with one in 3rd period of Tulsa semis this year and lost to a kid he had beaten multiple times. I guess he should have had this ohsaa ref instead of some youth ref
And snapspinscore IF the match was 5-5 (I don't agree with this, but for the sake of your argument), don't you think both wrestlers would have wrestled the end of the match differently. The referee took that opportunity away from BOTH of them.
snapspinscore
Well-known member
That’s fine, but I don’t buy this talk that McKinney was robbed of a state title. You can make the argument that Brown was robbed of the opportunity to have a controversy-free state title, because I think he’s winning that match regardless. He was the better wrestler that night. I also don’t understand how you can watch that sequence, and not come away with 2+2 for McKinney, then the reversal for Brown. It’s plain as the grass is green and the sky is blue.
Agree should have been 5-5, also agree with you and Heff that Brown would have found a way to win that match. But everyone got robbed. Brown got robbed of the chance to win a controversy free title, McKinney was robbed of a chance to win a title(6-1 vs. 5-5 with 1:05 left gave him very little chance compared to an even score), The fans got robbed of that match being 5-5 with 1:05 left.
snapspinscore
Well-known member
I agree with all of that.
flashhayhurst
Member
Be a part of the solution and get your license
That's funny.... I guess you don't know how the officials are picked for the OHSAA State Championship series. There are a bunch of younger and much "better" (subjective, I know but doesn't mean that it is not true) refs in Ohio, that are not part of the "Old Boys Club". Sat by one on Sunday at the Schott, talked to another young and much better refs parents on Saturday at the Schott. So, in my opinion and that of plenty others it is time to "drain the Swamp" and let the younger refs (guys and girls) who have answered "your be the part of the solution" calling to have a chance. Cannot be worse than over half of the officiating on display this past weekend.Be a part of the solution and get your license
Agreed.....If I would have said it it would have been "moderated" LOL. The solution is always "get your license! " How about implement a system where POOR calls or calls involving "subjectivity" that cost kids state titles or placements have a BETTER plan to "review" by a team of individuals, additionally have a system where the officials selected for the District and State tournament series have to be cleared of any potential bias due to association with coaches or wrestlers or parents of wrestlers. I've seen some incredibly POOR calls where referee's have DECIDED matches in favor of the losing wrestler, kind of a big deal in big matches for a high school kid. Instead of saying" get your license" or DENY poor calls OCCASIONALLY decide matches...how about improving the "review" system?
There's no reversal. 2 turns, no points scored then it turns into a scramble and a stalemate called. The only reason Brown went back on top is because it wasn't scored correctly. If it would have been scored differently then McKinney would have been on top.
It's really hard to say what would have happened had it been called correctly as if brown knows he is giving up backs, he likely scrambles to get off of his back, so it would just be guessing to say what happens after the reversal and nf.
Response maybe not worded the best. They both were clinging to an ankle that got called a stalemate after that sequence. I don't know how it would have played out if scored differently.
snapspinscore
Well-known member
Brown had him hooked in a turk with McKinney on his hip, its a reversal. Actually, if its scored correctly like you said, they dont even stalemate that position there, because they only stalemated it after they didn't reward McKinney any points and the ref wanted to talk about it. had they given McKinney 2+2, they would have not stalemated that situation, and Brown is now on top with a turk, and honestly has a 50/50 shot or better to turk that leg up and get NF of his own.
Tantamount to "if the food at the restaurant was poorly prepared, go become a chef." By the way, these are not volunteers. They are paid to do a job. I realize the pay may suck but they signed up to do it. To echo what someone else said, I was a licensed officials back in the early 90's. It was such an old boys club that it was extremely difficult to get opportunities. The good ole boys had certain tournaments and all of they picked all of their buddies for "their" tournaments. IMO this is one of the big reasons there is a shortage now. I became disenfranchised with the whole process and after a few years of the same, I said screw it.Be a part of the solution and get your license
Read your response and watched it again. I missed him stepping over as they were stopping the action. More than likely, if action continues, Brown was in a better position and would have reversed. I can appreciate the explanation.
snapspinscore
Well-known member
Because they are in a scramble? You could probably find a thousand examples of a scramble happening on the mat where the top guy has an ankle and so does the bottom guy, and they call a stalemate. I think you know that though.
when top guy drops to an ancle its stalling. They werent in a neutral scramble.
just watched the angle on here.. it wasnt stalling .. but the eds guy def. was fighting off his back. should have been r2 nf2.
the asst ref does not appear to be counting backs in any way shape or form.
pathetic officiating
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snapspinscore
Well-known member
I actually agree with you, it was poor officiating. I never argued one time that it was no points for McKinney. However, I am dead set on the fact that it was 2+2 for McKinney, and then a reversal for Brown, making it 5-5. I also think that if it were officiated properly, when Brown reverses him, hes got a very very good chance at getting his own NF, with that turk or a cradle that he loves to put on. I feel like Brown got screwed even more in this situation, because I think he was more than likely going to win that match anyway with the proper scoring, and now he has people on forums and facebook saying he isn't the real champ. He is the champ, and he deserved to win, and I for one, feel bad for Brown.
So you think brown got screwed more with a 6-1 lead and on top but with a turk in than Mckinney with a 5-5 score and on bottom with 45 seconds left? I'd rather be up 6-1 and lose my turk than 5-5 with a leg turked and 45 seconds left