It's important to note that Casey Santoro did not play in last night's Bellevue win over Sandusky so that's at least two games she has sat out. She has apologized, the injured girl and her family have accepted that apology, and Santoro is being punished very similar to what would have been the punishment had the official caught the incident in the first place. My thoughts on the incident. Had the official caught it originally and ejected her and she had the two game suspension it doesn't get blown into the full fledged national story that it did. Also, people were sending the video to news outlets literally before the game was over on Saturday and well before Bellevue school officials could have addressed the situation to anyone's satisfaction. Social media is great but in this case, I feel it needlessly exacerbated a bad situation. The video spoke for itself...I would have made sure Bellevue administration saw it and given them a chance to address the situation and then, if nothing was done, involved the media.
Bellevue Girls outa control...hair pulling video
- Thread starter Tesoro
- Start date
NorthCentral
Well-known member
Bellevue DID see the video, and told Norwalk "it was an accident and there will be no disciplinary action". That and the tweets from the Bellevue girls set off the social media storm. After days of pressure, Bellevue decided to administer a single game suspension. They told Norwalk it would be one game, and their coach was quoted saying that in a local paper too. That set off even more of the social storm. After days of negative publicity nationwide, Bellevue decided to suspend the player for a second game. Yep, they did the right thing, kicking and scratching the whole way. That says a lot for the school administration, who apparently are scared of their coach and his threats.
You nailed it...and as I said previously, the adults are the ones that handled this poorly, right from the moment it happened. It started with the coach/father. Hell, any parent in the position of a coach you would think would react even more strongly (you seem to expect more from your own children). She would have sat the rest of the game (foul or no foul called), and had a serious discussion after.
But, I don't know why I would expect that actually...My daughter was playing a soccer game when one of her teammates was taken out with a non-soccer move, should have been a red card, but a yellow was given. The carded player went straight to mid-filed out of play waiting for the next chance to come back in, no coach/player conversation ever occurred.
Athletic directors are the CEO, why they accept this behavior from their coaches is not a mystery... if they are successful
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Not basketball related, but goes with your comment about a father expecting more from their child. Back in the 50s when I was in high school my dad kept the scorebook for basketball and umpired the baseball games. Did it so the school didn't have to pay someone to do the job. We're playing a neighboring school and dad is behind the plate. I was on third and the ball got away from the catcher and I'm headed home. The catcher is trying to find the ball and it is about a foot up the third base line. I broke stride to kick the ball away so the runner coming behind me could score as well. I missed the ball but the runner from second scored anyway. I had to go past dad around the plate area to get to our bench. As I went by he said, loud enough for the second runner to hear as well, If you ever try that again you're out of the game. Nothing more was said, but the message was clear.
I officiated for over 25 years. That's just sheer incompetence not to see something right in front of your face. The baseline official should be watching the paint and the outside ref in a two man team watches the back court. No excuses.
Um..it wasn't right in front of his face..he was ahead and to the left of the incident. You must have been the best ref ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
taximama24
Active member
Fox News has a clear as day up close video on it, different from the original video shared, and the fact that they even tried to excuse this as an accident speaks to the (lack of and/or despicable) character of Casey Santoro, Dad/Coach Kory Santoro, and the Bellevue Administration. Pause that video at 0:15 and you see a body of distance between the players, Santoro's arm fully extended and wrapped completely around the base of the opponents ponytail, with the ponytail hair hanging fully straight down the back. The players were not tied up, the hair was not flying around, Santoro's fingers were not caught as she claimed Look at the screenshots of the mocking tweets she and her sisters were sharing and liking, the pride they showed in this incident says as much as the foul itself, or worse.
I can see how a two man crew missed the foul, and I think even attempting to shift the blame and attention to the refs in this case is also ridiculous. Having Daddy ball at the high school level is embarrassing enough to coaching, defending this behavior and shifting the blame is embarrassing to the game itself. Even more disappointing that Kent State WBB Coach Todd Starkey "liked" her apology on twitter accepting this blatant lie for this intentionally harmful foul, when she pulls stunts like this in college that immediately get shared by ESPN/SportsCenter, etc I hope he doesn't try to pawn a line about how out of character it is for her then.
I can see how a two man crew missed the foul, and I think even attempting to shift the blame and attention to the refs in this case is also ridiculous. Having Daddy ball at the high school level is embarrassing enough to coaching, defending this behavior and shifting the blame is embarrassing to the game itself. Even more disappointing that Kent State WBB Coach Todd Starkey "liked" her apology on twitter accepting this blatant lie for this intentionally harmful foul, when she pulls stunts like this in college that immediately get shared by ESPN/SportsCenter, etc I hope he doesn't try to pawn a line about how out of character it is for her then.
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I'd agree if it was just the incident but you cannot defend the social media stuff afterwards. That is fully 100% on her and her father as coach. Also let's not act like the two game suspension would have happened if either game was one the team could in any way possibly lose. I'd be impressed if she was forced to sit a game where her absence mattered.
I just can't believe her dad/coach let her finish the game.
Nothing would condone what she did, but does anyone know if anything led up to it? By MaxPreps records it looks like a really good team playing an average team, and it wound up being a 40 point blowout. Not that a more competitive situation would warrant what she did. We live a long way away and the video was going around the stands at our game last night and people were just in shock that anyone would be so out of control.
Nothing would condone what she did, but does anyone know if anything led up to it? By MaxPreps records it looks like a really good team playing an average team, and it wound up being a 40 point blowout. Not that a more competitive situation would warrant what she did. We live a long way away and the video was going around the stands at our game last night and people were just in shock that anyone would be so out of control.
LOL, they did lose.....by 13. Lost undefeated regular season. You should be very impressed. FWIW I don't defend the social media stuff I agree with you 100 %.
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I don't want to speak negatively about any of the other players in District 6 - Division 2, but something really bugged me this weekend when I saw it....
For Casey Santoro to not be voted District 6 POY - by the coaches in her district, because of this incident - is just wrong.
Every single player and coach in District 6 has made mistakes during the past 4 years.
- Were any of them as "bad" as Casey's?
- Could any of them have hurt someone like Casey did?
- Did they show more sincere remorse than Casey did?
Obviously each person can only answer that for themselves, but clearly Casey's mistake had the most media coverage and outrage.
With that being said - Casey was easily the best player in District 6 this year. It wasn't even close. Everyone who watched Bellevue knows this.
The coaches should be ashamed for taking an award (and also N-S game status, since she didn't get POY) away from a player for an on-court incident - which she was punished for. Whether or not everyone thinks that missing 2 games is enough or not - Casey missed 2 games - the same as if she were ejected from the game.
We should re-name the District 6 POY Award - "The District 6 PC POY Award" or "The District 6 Top Player Who Didn't Ball Us Out and Enrage Us For 4 Years Award".
I sure hope that the moral police and those whose opinions on character and decisions later on in life don't find things to crucify all of those coaches.
***Also - for the record, I literally have no connection to Bellevue or the Santoro family at all and I am not sure if two games was enough for what she did.***
For Casey Santoro to not be voted District 6 POY - by the coaches in her district, because of this incident - is just wrong.
Every single player and coach in District 6 has made mistakes during the past 4 years.
- Were any of them as "bad" as Casey's?
- Could any of them have hurt someone like Casey did?
- Did they show more sincere remorse than Casey did?
Obviously each person can only answer that for themselves, but clearly Casey's mistake had the most media coverage and outrage.
With that being said - Casey was easily the best player in District 6 this year. It wasn't even close. Everyone who watched Bellevue knows this.
The coaches should be ashamed for taking an award (and also N-S game status, since she didn't get POY) away from a player for an on-court incident - which she was punished for. Whether or not everyone thinks that missing 2 games is enough or not - Casey missed 2 games - the same as if she were ejected from the game.
We should re-name the District 6 POY Award - "The District 6 PC POY Award" or "The District 6 Top Player Who Didn't Ball Us Out and Enrage Us For 4 Years Award".
I sure hope that the moral police and those whose opinions on character and decisions later on in life don't find things to crucify all of those coaches.
***Also - for the record, I literally have no connection to Bellevue or the Santoro family at all and I am not sure if two games was enough for what she did.***
AllSports12
Moderator
This was a three person crew. The trail official on this play is responsible for staying with the shooter until he/she feels that action associated with the try has ended. That includes any action after the shooter returns to the floor.
Nobody is disputing that the official erred in this situation. Instead of staying with the shooter and the defender, the official slightly turns his body towards the basket after the ball is released, which seems to indicate that he was watching the ball.
That mechanical mistake in and of itself does not make him an incompetent official, as we do not know the entire body of work with regards to him. And again, this miss in no way has any impact on the events that took place in the video. If he correctly rules that a flagrant foul has occurred, the shooter is still injured due to the intentional act by the defender and the defender is still getting roasted on social media.
AllSports12
Moderator
actions have consequences.... and yes, that action and the associated activity on social media afterwards is going to result in consequences...
Had the social media posts after the game contained a contrite apology rather than the mocking of what happened, then your position might have some merit.
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You have one point of view, I'm sure shared by many.
Ask yourself if you were voting, and you had the choice to make between a player who showed a serious character flaw, and one who may not have been quite as good ( I'm personally not sure which girl was better) but who's conduct permitted them to play a full season instead of sitting out 10% due to actions unbecoming the sport, which player would you vote for?
If player of the year is based solely on athletic merit that is one thing, but often coaches use character or personality as a tie breaker.
As a former coach, I could not in good faith reward such an individual as character means something to me. Also, her team lost a critical regular season game following her actions, she let the team down by not being available to help due to her own actions.
Then shut up.
Some additional thoughts on this from definitely someone impartial to and disconnected from this situation. Frank Deford, a legend in sports writing and someone I met at a colloquium while in college. I don't believe him to be PC, but a realist...this is from 2013, he passed away in 2017.
FRANK DEFORD: The Grammy nominations are in and the talk now is of what actors will be chosen for the Academy Awards, but not once have I heard anyone suggest that any of the actors or singers may not be nominated because of some character deficiency. Likewise, when it comes to awards in theatre or television or dance or literature, I don't ever recall any candidate losing out because of any perceived personal flaw or moral deficiency.
Only sports applies that peripheral off-the-field standard. Most recently, of course, this has come up with respect to James Winston, the star quarterback of the top-ranked Florida State team. Winston was considered to be a shoo-in for the Heisman Trophy, until it was revealed that he might face charges for sexual assault. Immediately it was speculated that enough of the more than 900 Heisman voters - profound football experts, all - might change their ballots and vote for some lesser, purer player.
However, then, when the state said there was not enough evidence to bring charges against Winston, we were advised that he had a clean enough slate not to have his football record trumped, and he would surely win the honor come this Saturday.
Make no mistake, though. Voters have every right to judge the person as well as the player, as the declared Heisman measure is of excellence with integrity. This is rather like, most famously, he who might make it into the baseball Hall of Fame can't just be plenty good, but also must embrace, not only integrity, but also sportsmanship and character.
Should any of this personal essence matter? Well, how would you, the jury, decide in the clear-cut recent case of Bob Hewitt, who was voted into the International Tennis Hall of Fame in 1992? In the past few years, several adult women have accused Hewitt of raping them, when he was their coach and they were minors. He won't go on trial in South Africa till January, but the evidence against him appears overwhelming.
The Hall of Fame thus suspended Hewitt and removed all evidence of his existence on a tennis court. So, a monster Hewitt may have been revealed to be, but is his record as a player any the lesser that he is heinous? What say ye, jurors?
Perhaps because it is so physical, I think sport always feels a little insecure alongside the other arts. There is the image of the dumb jock. Does anybody ever say the dumb violinist or the dumb diva? So sport tries to build up its stars, not only as talented players but as wholesome, exemplary human beings. Actors and musicians can merely be artists, but sports likes to boast of angels and heroes.
Officiating in general has been on a decline for years. Sure seems funny every fan in that video reacted almost immediately to the missed call, Everybody but the ref that is. Yes he did miss the call, that's obvious. Quit making excuses for the guy. It is what it is, ridiculous take.
I appreciate you responding to me in the manner that you did - as opposed to telling me to shut up LOL.
I have voted in many of these meetings over the years - for a number of sports and I always tried to leave emotion out of these votes. Clearly - this is a MAJOR hot-button issue.
I agree with you - if two kids are even or even close, it’s normal to consider other things (character being a large factor). In this case, I would argue that nobody in the D2 district was close to Casey this winter - if someone has stats (regular season, career and team success) to show me otherwise, I can definitely be swayed.
I am not arguing with anyone on this post, because most of you are supporting what I am saying. You are saying that a behavior issue has cost her the POY. That’s why I am saying it’s not a true POY award - if it doesn’t go to the best player.
Let me ask you all this...once again, remember that I am not condoning what Casey did and I certainly think the social media posts and subsequent handling of the situation was very poor....where do we draw the line here with events that we deem so severe that they should disqualify a player from receiving a POY award that they earned?
I think that underage drinking is bad. What if a player served a 2-game suspension for that? Guess what - that happens all of the time.
What about cheating on an exam? If the athletic department and administration for a school had a kid cheat - should they lose the oppprtinity to be POY?
What about lying to the OHSAA about a residential situation so they gain immediate eligibility? Should that player still get POY?
We need to keep moral/ethical decisions away from POY votes. Now - if Casey’s decisions prevented her from playing more games (she played 20) - then I am all for it!
CasualFan24
Well-known member
@AllSports12 was just explaining the mechanics/officials duty in that particular play as you had originally explained them incorrectly. The official on the baseline does not have responsibility on that play. The trail official that had the shot to begin with, should have stayed with the shooter all the way through the shot, if he would have stayed with the shooter, he would have seen the incident being discussed....there were not excuses being made other than he was explaining to you who should have been responsible for the call and why he did not see the flagrant foul (because he was ball watching)
Completely hear you on your point.
This is one of the oldest arguments in sports. Some fans/coaches believe POY awards should strictly be about an athletes skills and impact on the court, while others (myself included) believe there should be additional components to the POY such as sportsmanship and humility expressed to opponents.
My sons coach implemented the concept of "availability " to his consideration for POY. He made it clear if a player did something that caused them to be unavailable for games, thereby letting the team down, they would lose his vote for season team and conference awards. He issued a warning to the players at the beginning of the season, and made it clear it included school violations , breaking of laws and team rules. One such team rule was no player was permitted to engage in "risky" activity while in season such as ice hockey, pick up football games or my favorite sledding or skiing in the snow. More than a few parents thought such rules over the top. Then he would tell the story of how a team with great promise went out early after their starting point guard got hurt while sledding.
Action that results in hurting team = non qualified for end of year awards.
Again on the POY snub for Santoro...there are numerous examples of this occurring aside from my excerpt from Mr. Deford...
Here a player didn't hurt anyone, didn't miss a game (that I know of), and the award was for POY for the entire state.
bleacherreport.com
So, lapses in judgement come in all forms, and cocky and profane public announcements on Twitter would be the least harmful...but guess what, it looks like New Hampshire did not want that "character" representing their player of the year...District 6 in my mind had an easier decision not to vote for her.
Here a player didn't hurt anyone, didn't miss a game (that I know of), and the award was for POY for the entire state.
New Hampshire HS Basketball Player of the Year Loses Award After Obscene Tweet
Social media has its benefits, but it can also ruin a year's worth of work in an instant. Pembroke Academy's (Pembroke, N.H...
bleacherreport.com
So, lapses in judgement come in all forms, and cocky and profane public announcements on Twitter would be the least harmful...but guess what, it looks like New Hampshire did not want that "character" representing their player of the year...District 6 in my mind had an easier decision not to vote for her.
CedarBuck92
Well-known member
I always go back an forth on this. If there are two players who are both deserving then I do think that character and other things should be considered. But I feel that POY along with other personal postseason awards awarded by outside entities should be athletically based as much as possible. There are obviously off field/court incidents that rightfully should get you DQ'd but the point of the award is performance on the court/field.
With all that being said, I do think it is reasonable to consider non-athletic things when distributing awards within your team.
Where do you draw the line on behavior that should keep a student athlete from winning awards if this isn't enough? I guess that's my question for those saying "best player wins it.. period..". High School sports are about teaching character and how to function in society as much about about teaching game fundamentals. I agree with others if it was just the isolated incident, then forgive the momentary lapse in judgment and give the award. Add in the complete lack of sincere regret and the arrogant mocking of those who called this as it was and no, she doesn't deserve the award imho.
BTW, my apologies on the post about the game. I didn't see the result and shouldn't have assumed.
BTW, my apologies on the post about the game. I didn't see the result and shouldn't have assumed.
This is 100% what I am asking MCGal. I agree - all of the stuff associated with the incident....good golly that was a bad look!
Nobody that I have spoken with has an answer though - where do we draw the line?
What about the players who are constantly using profanity or referencing sex and drugs and violence on their social media accounts?
I guess that what we all can agree on is that each coach can use their own judgement and how they weigh "character" and "decisions" into their voting process is ultimately up to each coach.
I wish that it could be more uniform, but obviously that will never happen.
I have said this before on this site, but unfortunately - I think that the "human side" of things has an impact on far too many things in our great game. It could be tournament seeding or award selections - regardless, I think that we should use more of the numbers and less of the feelings to make our decisions.
Curious One
Active member
So we should feel bad for poor Casey not winning POY instead of the girl she attacked losing the rest of her career? If I were Wards father, I would have been speaking to the prosecutor!
The local paper had a slightly different take...not saying it is more correct than a Cleveland TV station, but it is local...
HAZELWOOD: Finding a teaching moment
Amid hardship, a complete stranger to Norwalk delivered a defining act of class, sportsmanship
norwalkreflector.com
A teammate of my daughters was going up for a layup on a fast break and the opponent shoved her hard from behind and sent her flying head first into the wall at full speed. The wind was sucked out of the entire gym for a moment as we all prayed for this girl to be able to move. She was braced up on a board and carted off by ambulance to the hospital where, by the grace of God, she was absolutely fine except for a mild neck sprain.
The other player immediately got pulled out of the game by her own coach. The girl sobbed the entire time and her parents told her if she didn’t find a way to control her emotions in the game she would never play again. No one tweeted out mocking, offensive stuff and there was no trying to excuse the incident, And that is how this should have been handled.
Sounds like that Bellevue family has issues and should take a hard look at what they are teaching their kids. My guess is that player has done similar nasty things in her career. Karma on the POY
The other player immediately got pulled out of the game by her own coach. The girl sobbed the entire time and her parents told her if she didn’t find a way to control her emotions in the game she would never play again. No one tweeted out mocking, offensive stuff and there was no trying to excuse the incident, And that is how this should have been handled.
Sounds like that Bellevue family has issues and should take a hard look at what they are teaching their kids. My guess is that player has done similar nasty things in her career. Karma on the POY
eastisbest
Well-known member
They have a vote for a reason. If this wasn't about being human, they'd just create a formula.
If you do something in the game that costs your team its best player for a couple games, then you're not as good a player as someone that doesn't do that. Deford wants to base his opinion off what Hollywood does? Weinstein suddenly a bad producer? His movies no good? They never blacklisted anyone? Deford had a way of spinning his opinion to self-serve. Puts on the NPR voice and sounds reasonable but his head was somewhere other than on Earth sometimes.
There is more to being a player than points scored. Being a good teammate. Being a good sport. The Bellevue player doesn't measure up in those regards so why any controversy someone doesn't vote her POY? If she remembers more losing the POY than thatmoment day when she lost her humanity, no lesson was learned here.
Apology accepted from the injured player. Bygones.
If you do something in the game that costs your team its best player for a couple games, then you're not as good a player as someone that doesn't do that. Deford wants to base his opinion off what Hollywood does? Weinstein suddenly a bad producer? His movies no good? They never blacklisted anyone? Deford had a way of spinning his opinion to self-serve. Puts on the NPR voice and sounds reasonable but his head was somewhere other than on Earth sometimes.
There is more to being a player than points scored. Being a good teammate. Being a good sport. The Bellevue player doesn't measure up in those regards so why any controversy someone doesn't vote her POY? If she remembers more losing the POY than that
Apology accepted from the injured player. Bygones.
I missed this earlier but what a ridiculous take... so no senior should get to enjoy one small moment of what otherwise typically was a terrible end to their senior season and possibly career because they have a condition or injury that doesn't allow them on the floor? When these situations are set-up, there are literally no other players near them on the floor and all precautions are taken to ensure the health of the athlete. This is commonly done for kids and it is a mark of great character and great sportsmanship, not this twisted view that you took.