I've been looking through some league rule handbooks and I've found a few instances where league rules contradict the state guidelines on a procedure, which rule is the one to follow in that case? I've been told that National>State>League by some officials if the meet is an OHSAA sanctioned event but I just want to be sure
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Jim Behrens
Well-known member
Without any idea what you are referring to specifically, it is not possible to answer this question properly. Give us an idea of exactly what you are making reference to.
I've been looking through some league rule handbooks and I've found a few instances where league rules contradict the state guidelines on a procedure, which rule is the one to follow in that case? I've been told that National>State>League by some officials if the meet is an OHSAA sanctioned event but I just want to be sure
One that I find interesting is the random draw. If a league or conference receives a waiver from the ohsaa to begin all duals at 106, I would think that would set a precedent.
Without any idea what you are referring to specifically, it is not possible to answer this question properly. Give us an idea of exactly what you are making reference to.
Weigh in procedures, odds/evens with a coin flip, weight allowances, etc. Just noticed a bunch where league rules will contradict the state guidelines
Jim Behrens
Well-known member
Weigh in procedures, odds/evens with a coin flip, weight allowances, etc. Just noticed a bunch where league rules will contradict the state guidelines
All I can say is that every single one of those procedures is spelled out very clearly in the rule book, the case book, our interpretation updates, and clarifications we receive throughout the year. If the rules are not being followed, shame on those involved.
The only deviation like this that I know of is that the Suburban League got written permission from the OHSAA to start all their dual meets at 106. I have no idea why it was granted but I do know it was.
I have never heard of anything like what you are writing about.
All I can say is that every single one of those procedures is spelled out very clearly in the rule book, the case book, our interpretation updates, and clarifications we receive throughout the year. If the rules are not being followed, shame on those involved.
The only deviation like this that I know of is that the Suburban League got written permission from the OHSAA to start all their dual meets at 106. I have no idea why it was granted but I do know it was.
I have never heard of anything like what you are writing about.
Just for instance, I've noticed a lot of leagues say junior high weigh-ins are head to head just like the high-school but the OHSAA handbook says weigh them in at lunch. I just wanted to know if by rule of thumb to follow the state or league rules
Jim Behrens
Well-known member
Just for instance, I've noticed a lot of leagues say junior high weigh-ins are head to head just like the high-school but the OHSAA handbook says weigh them in at lunch. I just wanted to know if by rule of thumb to follow the state or league rules
That is quite a bit different than what I took from your original question.
Per this:
https://ohsaa.org/Portals/0/Sports/Wrestling/JH-Manual.pdf
on page 4 paragraph 4, MS weigh ins MAY take place at their school prior to lunch. This gives a degree of flexibility. No one is breaking any rules whether they do it prior to lunch or at the site of the meet. League rules would prevail and either way is acceptable as long as the method is known in advance.
BTW, this would have nothing to do with the mat official working the match.
That is quite a bit different than what I took from your original question.
Per this:
https://ohsaa.org/Portals/0/Sports/Wrestling/JH-Manual.pdf
on page 4 paragraph 4, MS weigh ins MAY take place at their school prior to lunch. This gives a degree of flexibility. No one is breaking any rules whether they do it prior to lunch or at the site of the meet. League rules would prevail and either way is acceptable as long as the method is known in advance.
BTW, this would have nothing to do with the mat official working the match.
Right, I didn't know where else to ask it though. What about weight allowances? I noticed some leagues gave 4-5 lbs coming off of multiple snow-days but others stuck to the 2lbs. Is there a precedent to follow there or is it just up to ADs and league heads to make those calls?
Jim Behrens
Well-known member
Right, I didn't know where else to ask it though. What about weight allowances? I noticed some leagues gave 4-5 lbs coming off of multiple snow-days but others stuck to the 2lbs. Is there a precedent to follow there or is it just up to ADs and league heads to make those calls?
I assume you are asking about MS here?
Regardless, there are procedures to be followed. Off the top of my head, I can not think of any reason why 5 pounds would be allowed. I am pretty sure there is documentation that limits a wrestler to 4 pounds.
I don't have the paperwork in front of me but I don't believe more than one pound is allowed regardless of the number of snow days. I could be wrong but I am reasonably sure this is correct. This applies to HS as well.
Therefore, with the 2 pounds given at Christmas plus one pound for snow day(s), you are at 3 pounds over scratch. Also, to get the pound for a snow day (or consecutive days of competition), schools have to notified. It is not made up on the spot. I suspect the schools that stuck to the 2 pound growth allowance did so because the other schools were not notified.
Coaches should be very aware of this and AD's or league officials are not permitted to make up their own rules.
I later found the documentation I thought I remembered.
It is:
https://ohsaa.org/Portals/0/Sports/Wrestling/HSWRManual.pdf
Look at page 14 para F7 which limits any weight allowance to 4 pounds max.
Last edited:
TechFall34
New member
Medical Default??
In a tournament, can a wrestler have a medical default, drop to the loser bracket and then wrestle his next match IF he's feeling better...
In a tournament, can a wrestler have a medical default, drop to the loser bracket and then wrestle his next match IF he's feeling better...
In a tournament, can a wrestler have a medical default, drop to the loser bracket and then wrestle his next match IF he's feeling better...
Yes!
Lockjaw316
Member
Leg ride stall vs stalemate
The last 2 weeks we've had a wrestler receive a stall warning while in a leg ride, neither time were there any previous stalemates called. Each time we had a coach go to the table with a referee and the call was not reversed.
Shouldn't stalemate be called twice before stalling? If the call made was wrong is there a reasonable way to have it overturned?
The last 2 weeks we've had a wrestler receive a stall warning while in a leg ride, neither time were there any previous stalemates called. Each time we had a coach go to the table with a referee and the call was not reversed.
Shouldn't stalemate be called twice before stalling? If the call made was wrong is there a reasonable way to have it overturned?
Without seeing the situation occur it is difficult to comment. However, here is an example where stalling is the correct call.The last 2 weeks we've had a wrestler receive a stall warning while in a leg ride, neither time were there any previous stalemates called. Each time we had a coach go to the table with a referee and the call was not reversed.
Shouldn't stalemate be called twice before stalling? If the call made was wrong is there a reasonable way to have it overturned?
Bottom stands up and top puts in leg to get potentially dangerous. Ref warns top man not to do it. Repeat...voila stalling.
Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk
Jim Behrens
Well-known member
The last 2 weeks we've had a wrestler receive a stall warning while in a leg ride, neither time were there any previous stalemates called. Each time we had a coach go to the table with a referee and the call was not reversed.
Shouldn't stalemate be called twice before stalling? If the call made was wrong is there a reasonable way to have it overturned?
There us absolutely nothing that supports calling stalemates before a stalling call is made. It does happen in a few cases as outlined above but that is based on interpretations that are handed down from above.
Doing as you have described is basically giving carte blanche to stall. IOW,. we will give you three chances to do nothing.
You describe a "leg ride". I would have to ask what was being done to try to improve and/or score points?
A way to look at it is that if neither wrestler CAN improve without risk, it is a stalemate. If one or the other CHOOSES that course of action, it is stalling.
BTW, if the coach went to the table over a stalling call and didn't get warned for misconduct, he was very lucky.
Lockjaw316
Member
Without seeing the situation occur it is difficult to comment. However, here is an example where stalling is the correct call.
Bottom stands up and top puts in leg to get potentially dangerous. Ref warns top man not to do it. Repeat...voila stalling.
Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk
In both instances the bottom wrestler's hip were broke and flat on the mat.
In both instances the bottom wrestler's hip were broke and flat on the mat.
What was the top man doing? Was the top man attempting to turn the bottom man or was he just riding with a leg in?
Is there a subjective element to a stalling call? Yes, but it is within a specific set of parameters.
Typically, the purpose of putting in legs is to attempt a specific set of tilts to score back points. If the top wrestler doesn't appear to be attempting one of those particular tilts then why does he have the leg in? If I see a wrestler using the leg ride for no purpose other than to eat the clock then I would call stalling similar to the wrestler that is riding the hips and making no real attempt to turn their opponent.
To get real specific - putting in a power half but keeping your body squarely over your opponent is a classic stalling technique that doesn't get called often enough, i.e. not attempting to use body weight and leverage by moving your body out to the side of your opponent to try turn/tilt your opponent while having a leg in.
Fortunately or unfortunately depending on your perspective; I was a leg riding wrestler and I can easily tell when a wrestler is using a leg ride to stall as compared to one that is using it to score points. For those who a less familiar with the use of leg rides it is more difficult to discern when a wrestler is using the leg ride to stall vs to score. For most parents that have little or no wrestling experience it is virtually impossible to tell the difference.
Quite honestly, if they called stalling on a leg ride there is a high probability that the top wrestler was not using the leg ride in an attempt to score and therefore by definition he was stalling and should have been called for it.
Can I get an unbiased honest opinion on 106lb Fenton vs Skinner state semifinal match? I'm hoping someone with referee experience/knowledge can share there thoughts on the match. There is a couple of calls/non-calls that I'm hoping someone can shed some light on for me. The 1st is the stall call with 7 seconds left in the 2nd period. The second one is in the 3rd period between the 635 and 655 mark. The ref raises his hand 3/4 of the way to award a takedown but no pts were given. Thoughts and or opinions would be greatly appreciated.
The match can be viewed on GOhioCast on youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/user/zzsmiller
The match can be viewed on GOhioCast on youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/user/zzsmiller
I am not a ref, but the Stalling was legit. He never left the hips the whole second period. He rode a tight waist and a half the whole period never once tried a turn. That is the definition of stalling. He was lucky to not be hit earlier in the period.
Thanks and I cant argue with that. What's your thoughts on the 3rd period? Do you think the call /non-call was correct?
Thanks and I can definitely see that, what's your thoughts on the 3rd period. Do you think the call /non-call was correct?
As a fan/coach it was close either way. I would defer to a ref on that one as I don’t know every criteria.
StillNeutral
Member
The stall call was legit, and pretty much textbook, now stalling is a judgement call, and many officials may look at it different but I completely agree with both stalling calls, both calls were almost identical, imo he never lets go of he tight waist and shows me no attempt to execute any type of break down move and or any type of move to attempt to turn and or pin his opponent, he never tries to leave his safe place of riding behind the hips.
As for the possible takedown, I can see it being called and see it not being called, now even though its a great look by the camera, its completely different feeling and look on the mat. Imo its very loose, and I still have continual motion by both wrestlers, if there is control I don't know that I have it past reaction time, as if wrestler a is covering his 3 points of control its held exremley loose for me in this scramble, enough for me to warrant letting it burn till they settle, now im not the official on the at and what his thoughts were, but I did see him confer with his assistant and its seemed as if they both agree, it is a very tough tight call
As for the possible takedown, I can see it being called and see it not being called, now even though its a great look by the camera, its completely different feeling and look on the mat. Imo its very loose, and I still have continual motion by both wrestlers, if there is control I don't know that I have it past reaction time, as if wrestler a is covering his 3 points of control its held exremley loose for me in this scramble, enough for me to warrant letting it burn till they settle, now im not the official on the at and what his thoughts were, but I did see him confer with his assistant and its seemed as if they both agree, it is a very tough tight call
The stall call was legit, and pretty much textbook, now stalling is a judgement call, and many officials may look at it different but I completely agree with both stalling calls, both calls were almost identical, imo he never lets go of he tight waist and shows me no attempt to execute any type of break down move and or any type of move to attempt to turn and or pin his opponent, he never tries to leave his safe place of riding behind the hips.
As for the possible takedown, I can see it being called and see it not being called, now even though its a great look by the camera, its completely different feeling and look on the mat. Imo its very loose, and I still have continual motion by both wrestlers, if there is control I don't know that I have it past reaction time, as if wrestler a is covering his 3 points of control its held exremley loose for me in this scramble, enough for me to warrant letting it burn till they settle, now im not the official on the at and what his thoughts were, but I did see him confer with his assistant and its seemed as if they both agree, it is a very tough tight call
Thanks for your comments. I'm very close to the family and of course my opinion is swayed lol. The ref raising 2 makes it hard to swallow but I'm never taking anything away from the winner. Hes a very good and deserving kid.
StillNeutral
Member
as far as the possible last takedown at the end of the 3rd, I feel is a good no call, they are still moving just like the previous scramble, and time runs out before he throws the legs over, and he has the leg blocked with his arm as time is elapsing ive got nothing there
StillNeutral
Member
Thanks for your comments. I'm very close to the family and of course my opinion is swayed lol. The ref raising 2 makes it hard to swallow but I'm never taking anything away from the winner. Hes a very good and deserving kid.
I get the whole bringing up the hand can be confusing, I do that myself , mostly in anticipation and them the situation changes, but I generally let everyone know , theres no takedown your still neutral
https://youtu.be/j3dFCCn30QA
Please tell me how to rationally explain how this was fair and impartial?
This match in my opinion was decided by this official. This was a placement match.
1. How long should it take to look for a fall?
2. Two stall calls in the last 12 seconds of a match? If it wasn’t stalling in the first period why now?
3. The coach ask the head official to confer with the assistant about the stall call at the end of regulation to send the match to overtime? The response was “coach, any more and I will hit you for unsportsmanlike? Is that appropriate? Warranted?
1. It was clear from the video that it wasn’t a pin. The bottom man’s shoulder closest to top man was up the whole time.
2. The best part of the video was the person recording TELLING the wrestler to stall and he wasn’t listening (still attacking). He then does stop attacking and gets hit which then sets off the person recording. He did exactly what you told him to do and got hit for it. Not sure what the argument is here.
3. By rule arguing stalling at all is supposed to be unsportsmanlike since it is a judgement call. The fact that the ref even listened for a minute was already a concession on his part.
Moral of the story, don’t tell your kid to stall and then get upset when he gets called for stalling.
https://youtu.be/j3dFCCn30QA
Please tell me how to rationally explain how this was fair and impartial?
This match in my opinion was decided by this official. This was a placement match.
Can't really comment on the quality of officiating; too many intangibles from watching the video. However, I can comment on the quality of the "role model" doing the video taping (verbalization). That's what's really. disappointing and wrong.
StillNeutral
Member
Can someone repost the video it's coming up not available, or at least the competitors name and weight class and round so I could try to look it up
Can someone repost the video it's coming up not available, or at least the competitors name and weight class and round so I could try to look it up
I think the guy deleted it because he realized he was the one that sounded bad with the way he was talking/yelling.
Just curious but what would the call be for a wrestler intentionally grabbing another wrestler by the crotch while trying not to get pinned? I saw it Friday in the state tournament and the ref didn't see it the wrestle did get pinned as it happens so it didn't affect the outcome.
Jim Behrens
Well-known member
Just curious but what would the call be for a wrestler intentionally grabbing another wrestler by the crotch while trying not to get pinned? I saw it Friday in the state tournament and the ref didn't see it the wrestle did get pinned as it happens so it didn't affect the outcome.
You ask about grabbing the crotch but that could mean something other than what I would guess you are meaning.
Depending on how the the official viewed it, it could/should be considered as illegal (any move which involves unnecessary force applied to an opponent), UNR (pretty obvious), or flagrant misconduct.
If I saw it happen, I would lean toward the later. There is simply no excuse for that.