Ask the Ref?
- Thread starter Yappi
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zebrastripes
Well-known member
I’m not sure I understand your question, but if he doesn’t start a second dribble after the first one ends, there cannot be a violation for an illegal dribble.
And regarding the coach on the floor: “What you permit, you promote.” Unfortunately the officials that don’t handle business make things unnecessarily difficult for the ones that do.
I think you understood it perfectly. The kid took one dribble. He was whistled for double dribble.
Mr. Slippery
Well-known member
Heard this scenario while at a road game last week:
Following a timeout, Team A is to inbound the ball with 3.8 seconds left. The ball is inbounded and 2 dribbles are taken. However, the clock did not start when the ball was put into play by the inbounder. The officials' decision was to have Team A inbound the ball again from the same spot, but they also ordered the clock to be reset to 2 seconds. Was the situation handled correctly by the officials?
Another unusual but not impossible situation at a recent game:
Team A is at the foul line for 2 FTs. First FT is good. On the second FT, one player from each Team A and Team B entered the lane early. For what it's worth, it was unclear if either player entered the lane before the other (e.g. in the NFL when a defensive lineman's presnap movement induces an offensive linemen's presnap movement). Their movements appeared synchronized. The FT was made. The official called the lane violation, waved off the shot, and awarded Team B the ball out of bounds. How does one unravel this situation? In other words, does it matter which team violated first, or is the shot waved off once any player from the shooting team violates, regardless of what the defending team does during the FT attempt?
Following a timeout, Team A is to inbound the ball with 3.8 seconds left. The ball is inbounded and 2 dribbles are taken. However, the clock did not start when the ball was put into play by the inbounder. The officials' decision was to have Team A inbound the ball again from the same spot, but they also ordered the clock to be reset to 2 seconds. Was the situation handled correctly by the officials?
Another unusual but not impossible situation at a recent game:
Team A is at the foul line for 2 FTs. First FT is good. On the second FT, one player from each Team A and Team B entered the lane early. For what it's worth, it was unclear if either player entered the lane before the other (e.g. in the NFL when a defensive lineman's presnap movement induces an offensive linemen's presnap movement). Their movements appeared synchronized. The FT was made. The official called the lane violation, waved off the shot, and awarded Team B the ball out of bounds. How does one unravel this situation? In other words, does it matter which team violated first, or is the shot waved off once any player from the shooting team violates, regardless of what the defending team does during the FT attempt?
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Talk some sense
Active member
I think he means he might not understand your motive, since those facts don't make it a double dribble. Did you see this? If so, are you perhaps biased as to the number of dribbles actually taken. Or perhaps did the player dribble, catch, and then fumble the ball to the floor and then catch it? Which might not be a dribble in your eyes?
Nope. Clean catch, one two handed dribble, jump shot.
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AllSports12
Moderator
This is where the official may have gotten confused........It is not illegal to begin a dribble by pushing the ball to the floor with both hands.
Ruling this a double dribble (illegal dribble) is an incorrect call.
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AllSports12
Moderator
When the timer makes mistake or the clock malfunctions, time can only be adjusted when the officials have definite knowledge of the time that elapsed. This definite knowledge can be ascertained by normal officiating functions such as a visual count, a verbal count, a non-verbal count, etc...... ( on a non-verbal count, that official better be right
)One might argue (a strong argument, I might add) that removing 1.8 seconds is virtually impossible to be achieved through definite knowledge...... but this is why, for the most part, we don't engage in indepth discussions on specific plays here.
If a simultaneous free throw violation occurs during the last free throw of a series, the free throw is cancelled and the ball is put back into play using the alternating possession arrow.
If a simultaneous free throw violation occurs during the first of two or three awarded free throws (when more throws are merited) , that throw is cancelled and the remaining throws will be attempted.
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zebrastripes
Well-known member
It's possible that the crew had definite knowledge that two seconds should have expired and they wanted the clock at 1.8, but they were dealing with an incompetent timer who didn't know how to put tenths on the game clock, so they rounded it off. That being said, I wasn't there, but it's amazing how many timers look at you like a deer-in-headlights when you ask them to put the clock at a specific tenth. It's happened to me multiple times.When the timer makes mistake or the clock malfunctions, time can only be adjusted when the officials have definite knowledge of the time that elapsed. This definite knowledge can be ascertained by normal officiating functions such as a visual count, a verbal count, a non-verbal count, etc...... ( on a non-verbal count, that official better be right
One might argue (a strong argument, I might add) that removing 1.8 seconds is virtually impossible to be achieved through definite knowledge...... but this is why, for the most part, we don't engage in indepth discussions on specific plays here.
AllSports12
Moderator
We could play what-if all day with any situation. That doesn't bode well for a good Q&A in a setting like this.
My answer was based on the original post indicating that the crew "ordered the clock to be reset to 2 seconds".
Talk some sense
Active member
Why wouldn't they reset to 3.8 seconds which makes the situation whole? Why should the inbounding team be penalized for a timer's error? I could see a situation where a home timer could advantage their team at the end of a game or quarter by not starting the clock.
AllSports12
Moderator
Homer timers are very, very, very rare......
To answer the "why we don't reset?" question.............
What if there is a foul?
What if the team in possession violates then you see the clock has not started?
What if the team in possession scores?
What if the opponent steals the ball, scores, then we see the clock has not started?
That's why we don't "re-do"
like they do in volleyball . Too many "what-if's" and potential exceptions to rules.
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Talk some sense
Active member
I get it. It might get complicated. So in the case above if in the ref's head 4 seconds had gone by then the game would be over. Mind you, this in a situation where the ref wasn't counting anything off. Or, if 5 seconds had actually gone off and a team scored the winning bucket, but the ref thought it felt like 3.5.Homer timers are very, very, very rare......
To answer the "why we don't reset?" question.............
What if there is a foul?
What if the team in possession violates then you see the clock has not started?
What if the team in possession scores?
What if the opponent steals the ball, scores, then we see the clock has not started?
That's why we don't "re-do"
Talk some sense
Active member
Or why stop the clock and take it out of bounds at all? Why not wait until the next dead ball and estimate the time. lol. Would really suck if a team is inbounding against pressure, gets it in, and then has to do it all over again. Don't envy you guys which is why I stick to playing and coaching.Homer timers are very, very, very rare......
To answer the "why we don't reset?" question.............
What if there is a foul?
What if the team in possession violates then you see the clock has not started?
What if the team in possession scores?
What if the opponent steals the ball, scores, then we see the clock has not started?
That's why we don't "re-do"
AllSports12
Moderator
If he had definite knowledge, yes.
Rule 5-10-1
The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock.
Neither one of us knows if the official had a non-verbal count.
AllSports12
Moderator
Sometimes we can't wait til the next dead ball and the rules do not allow us to "estimate" time....
Most people don't think we are smart enough to count to 3, 5, or 10 to begin with.....
This one has been answered..... time to move on.
AllSports12
Moderator
During the regular season, as long as there isn't a direct relationship between the official and the school, it's not improper.
During tournament time, the official should recuse himself from that situation.
I don't know if this has been addressed or not (didn't feel like looking through 22 pages), but is there a rule on floor regulation for Junior High basketball?
The reason I ask is because I've seen most schools play on their HS court or a court HS regulation size, but every once and awhile you'll see a Junior High team play on an elementary size court. I saw one court not too long ago that was almost a square.
In football and volleyball, the field of play is the same for JH as it is for HS. Does basketball not require this?
The reason I ask is because I've seen most schools play on their HS court or a court HS regulation size, but every once and awhile you'll see a Junior High team play on an elementary size court. I saw one court not too long ago that was almost a square.
In football and volleyball, the field of play is the same for JH as it is for HS. Does basketball not require this?
AllSports12
Moderator
There are no "required" dimensions under NFHS Rules. The Rules do provide that the "ideal" dimensions for games played under this rule code is 84 x 50. The number of schools that have floors smaller than this this is dwindling rapidly as those floors are inside older school buildings that are being replaced. Personally, I have yet to see a new school with a basketball floor smaller than the recommended 84 x 50.
As a side note, I have worked on junior high and youth ball (not for years) fields that are less than 120yd x 53 1/3yd... (something I have advocated for years at the lower levels)
Thanks for clarifying. I personally have never seen JH or youth football played on a smaller field, but I see the benefits of it; especially for the youth sports. I'm in my early 30s, but I don't remember seeing too many HS gyms not the "ideal" size being played on even when I was in school, but I do remember some now that I think about it. I just assumed that in 2019(2020) most would be universal size now.
AllSports12
Moderator
I remember not too long ago working varsity games on courts that did not have a center division line. There were two lines 42' from the opposite end line that served as the '10 second line". Once you got to that line you were considered to be in the front court and then you would revert to the previous line for any back court violations....
CedarBuck92
Well-known member
AS12 have you officiated games that were played in a gym with something other than wood for a surface?
AllSports12
Moderator
Sure !!
Remember the old Tartan surface floors? UD used it until the mid-80 and finally removed it in 2017. (the wood flooring had been laid over the top of it since then) That stuff was nasty in more ways than one.
There were many a tile floor I worked on as well.
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AllSports12
Moderator
A substitute, chosen by his Head Coach, will attempt the free throw(s).
Lightning2
Member
2nd half of a game. Team A commits an intentional foul on Team B. Team B goes to shoot the free throws. Coach of team B is talking with all four others players on the same side of half court as the shooter is shooting his intentional ft. Are players allowed to be over half court or must the be on the other side?
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AllSports12
Moderator
There is no requirement for any of the other players to be behind the division line during free throws attempted due to an Intentional or Technical Foul. They must not, however be positioned along the free throw lane or on the court below the free throw line extended where the throws are being attempted.
zebrastripes
Well-known member
Wait, but here on page 67 of the MSU rule book...
(In all seriousness, can you tell this to some of the partners I work with?)