An Honest Conversation About the Tournament

 
JSYK, you sound like a jackass with this moralizing characterization of “others are uninformed / holding onto the past” and ‘there’s too many threads on this topic’ when you’re saying mess like

Imagine the crowds if there were 3/ public and 2 Private divisions… Place would be slammed for 3/5 of the tournament. And the private division games would be very entertaining with 83 fans there watching.
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…in the exact same post.
 
FYI......2004.....OG vs.....Dover......D2 State Semi Final....16,079

Final vs Canal Fulton Northwest...Sold out (only time ever without Lebron...)...18,200
 
ohio.hoops15 said:
There's way too many threads about the tournament going on. Mostly filled with people that are uninformed, holding onto the past, or afraid to call it like it is. Feel free to bash me with comments or give your opinions.

1) Dayton is a fantastic site. Complain about driving distance and lack of hangout spots all you want, the gym, parking, venue, etc. are great for the Final Four. It is a much better environment for a crowd than the Schott.

2) The number one contributing factor to the decline in attendance is the teams that are playing. Anyone in the arena with functioning eyes knows what the crowds would look like if the two schools were public. The public school crowds stick out because one side of the gym is packed and the other is EMPTY. The four schools that brought the highest attended games over the last two years by far were OG, Centerville, Cincy Taft, and Pick Central (who doesn't bring a great crowd for their size). Common theme? The recruiting, transfer filled, private schools will continue to make it every year and will continue to bring ZERO fans. (Why are we shocked every year?) They have ZERO fan base and casual fans/basketball watchers are sick of watching them play. When the AAU coach lead (some Private some Public) transfer portal teams make it, you are already essentially cutting out about 35-45% of a normal sized crowd already. IT IS SIMPLE MATH. The only times in the history of the state tournament that a private school crowd is balanced out, is if they have a star attraction or top recruit(s) that draws a crowd. In my opinion, it is not mean or disrespectful to say that nobody wants to watch these teams play. It's just the truth. These teams not only lead to smaller single game crowds, but also less interest in the overall weekend.

3) Go to the games! - If you're on here messaging from home about crowds and such, but did not go to a handful of the games, why are you complaining? People forget how fun the games are and are finding reasons not to go instead of putting some complaints to the side and going. It should be illegal to hold AAU tournaments on the same weekend. If your son/daughter is playing in an AAU tournament when you could be at the boys/girls State tourney, that's a problem.

4) Other Factors/Unrelated- Yes, online tickets make it difficult for a portion of the older crowd to want to come. Yes, we all wish it was still at St. John Arena. Yes, Sunday State championships, especially at 8:30 PM are miserable and they need to change back to Saturday. Also, don't complain about the super districts. That setup is 100x better than being locked in with the same teams year after year.

5) Wishful Thinking- Imagine the crowds if there were 3/ public and 2 Private divisions. Guess what? Places like Florida, Texas, and Virginia have figured it out. Place would be slammed for 3/5 of the tournament. And the private division games would be very entertaining with 83 fans there watching. (I'm aware Richmond Heights is public. My thread on making it illegal for HS coaches to also be AAU program directors will be up later HA)
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The attendance at the state title game between Akron Hoban and Pickerington Central was 3925. Usually the D-1 game has the most fans in attendance during the tournament. Not this year.
 
2018 - 106,000 Attendance - 5 Private Schools
2023 - 60,000 Attendance - 7 Private Schools

In 2018 the two most attended games had private schools in it

Moeller vs Lorain - 10,100
SVSM vs Lexington - 10,400

In 2018 the fourth biggest game was attended by two private schools

Lutheran West vs. Chaminade - 5,300

The most attended game was Pick vs Centerville with 8,500.

To lose over 45,000 in attendance when the most attended games in 2018 had a private school team in it is very interesting.

It’s definitely not going back to the glory days but damn hopefully it at least gets back to 5 years ago.
 
Dayton is a much better place to go as a fan. Better seating and closer to the action and the small crowds would make the Schott seem empty. Parking is a no-brainer. I love Daytons arena

I loved St. John’s; have never loved the Schott, but the benefits of Dayton make it a much better place for fans.
 
My thoughts. Anybody clamoring for St Johns or The Schott over UD Arena either hasn't been to UD or needs their head examined (I'm talking venue, not location). Crowds are down due to lack of following for some schools, whether it be the private school that lacks that community connection or the simple fact that people just don't go to games like they used to (attendance in my area has been dwindling for years, especially amongst the student section). The Fri-Sun format definitely hurts attendance, but I'm not sure of a way around that with UD hosting the First 4 NCAA games every year.
 
I've been to state playoff games at all three venues. For pure "basketball aura" you really cannot compare the other two to St. John's. The only thing close, at least that I've been to, is Canton McKinley. But that is a non-starter because, for a plethora of reasons, St. John's is not going to happen. So, it's really between the Schott and UD. And between the two, UD IMO is far superior. It's a better place to watch a high school basketball game in the same vein that Canton is a better place to watch a high school football game than Columbus. And to hear NEO fans complain about the drive to Dayton is as tiresome as listening to SWO fans complain about the drive to Canton. Although, I will qualify that statement as it applies to the D1 title game. Starting that late on a Sunday night I am sure negatively impacted the attendance for both teams. The game ended at around 10:00 pm. The post-game activities ended around 11:00. Then a 3+ hour drive home when everyone needs to get up for work Monday morning is just not ideal from any perspective. Still, other than that, UD is the vastly superior venue when compared to the Schott. And returning to St. John's is a pipe dream.
 
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ohio.hoops15 said:
The only times in the history of the state tournament that a private school crowd is balanced out, is if they have a star attraction or top recruit(s) that draws a crowd. In my opinion, it is not mean or disrespectful to say that nobody wants to watch these teams play. It's just the truth. These teams not only lead to smaller single game crowds, but also less interest in the overall weekend.
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Or if it's Delphos St. John's.
 
ohio.hoops15 said:
There's way too many threads about the tournament going on. Mostly filled with people that are uninformed, holding onto the past, or afraid to call it like it is. Feel free to bash me with comments or give your opinions.

1) Dayton is a fantastic site. Complain about driving distance and lack of hangout spots all you want, the gym, parking, venue, etc. are great for the Final Four. It is a much better environment for a crowd than the Schott.

2) The number one contributing factor to the decline in attendance is the teams that are playing. Anyone in the arena with functioning eyes knows what the crowds would look like if the two schools were public. The public school crowds stick out because one side of the gym is packed and the other is EMPTY. The four schools that brought the highest attended games over the last two years by far were OG, Centerville, Cincy Taft, and Pick Central (who doesn't bring a great crowd for their size). Common theme? The recruiting, transfer filled, private schools will continue to make it every year and will continue to bring ZERO fans. (Why are we shocked every year?) They have ZERO fan base and casual fans/basketball watchers are sick of watching them play. When the AAU coach lead (some Private some Public) transfer portal teams make it, you are already essentially cutting out about 35-45% of a normal sized crowd already. IT IS SIMPLE MATH. The only times in the history of the state tournament that a private school crowd is balanced out, is if they have a star attraction or top recruit(s) that draws a crowd. In my opinion, it is not mean or disrespectful to say that nobody wants to watch these teams play. It's just the truth. These teams not only lead to smaller single game crowds, but also less interest in the overall weekend.

3) Go to the games! - If you're on here messaging from home about crowds and such, but did not go to a handful of the games, why are you complaining? People forget how fun the games are and are finding reasons not to go instead of putting some complaints to the side and going. It should be illegal to hold AAU tournaments on the same weekend. If your son/daughter is playing in an AAU tournament when you could be at the boys/girls State tourney, that's a problem.

4) Other Factors/Unrelated- Yes, online tickets make it difficult for a portion of the older crowd to want to come. Yes, we all wish it was still at St. John Arena. Yes, Sunday State championships, especially at 8:30 PM are miserable and they need to change back to Saturday. Also, don't complain about the super districts. That setup is 100x better than being locked in with the same teams year after year.

5) Wishful Thinking- Imagine the crowds if there were 3/ public and 2 Private divisions. Guess what? Places like Florida, Texas, and Virginia have figured it out. Place would be slammed for 3/5 of the tournament. And the private division games would be very entertaining with 83 fans there watching. (I'm aware Richmond Heights is public. My thread on making it
Click to expand...
Speaking of
ohio.hoops15 said:
There's way too many threads about the tournament going on. Mostly filled with people that are uninformed, holding onto the past, or afraid to call it like it is. Feel free to bash me with comments or give your opinions.

1) Dayton is a fantastic site. Complain about driving distance and lack of hangout spots all you want, the gym, parking, venue, etc. are great for the Final Four. It is a much better environment for a crowd than the Schott.

2) The number one contributing factor to the decline in attendance is the teams that are playing. Anyone in the arena with functioning eyes knows what the crowds would look like if the two schools were public. The public school crowds stick out because one side of the gym is packed and the other is EMPTY. The four schools that brought the highest attended games over the last two years by far were OG, Centerville, Cincy Taft, and Pick Central (who doesn't bring a great crowd for their size). Common theme? The recruiting, transfer filled, private schools will continue to make it every year and will continue to bring ZERO fans. (Why are we shocked every year?) They have ZERO fan base and casual fans/basketball watchers are sick of watching them play. When the AAU coach lead (some Private some Public) transfer portal teams make it, you are already essentially cutting out about 35-45% of a normal sized crowd already. IT IS SIMPLE MATH. The only times in the history of the state tournament that a private school crowd is balanced out, is if they have a star attraction or top recruit(s) that draws a crowd. In my opinion, it is not mean or disrespectful to say that nobody wants to watch these teams play. It's just the truth. These teams not only lead to smaller single game crowds, but also less interest in the overall weekend.

3) Go to the games! - If you're on here messaging from home about crowds and such, but did not go to a handful of the games, why are you complaining? People forget how fun the games are and are finding reasons not to go instead of putting some complaints to the side and going. It should be illegal to hold AAU tournaments on the same weekend. If your son/daughter is playing in an AAU tournament when you could be at the boys/girls State tourney, that's a problem.

4) Other Factors/Unrelated- Yes, online tickets make it difficult for a portion of the older crowd to want to come. Yes, we all wish it was still at St. John Arena. Yes, Sunday State championships, especially at 8:30 PM are miserable and they need to change back to Saturday. Also, don't complain about the super districts. That setup is 100x better than being locked in with the same teams year (I'm aware Richmond Heights
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ohio.hoops15 said:
There's way too many threads about the tournament going on. Mostly filled with people that are uninformed, holding onto the past, or afraid to call it like it is. Feel free to bash me with comments or give your opinions.
Click to expand...

ohio.hoops15 said:
. (I'm aware Richmond Heights is public. My thread on making it illegal for HS coaches to also be AAU program directors will be up later HA)
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Richmond Hts HC is not an AAU program director and never has been.

I wish people would stick to facts on these boards.

You are correct by stating most of the people posting are really uninformed and NEVER provide facts.

For example, what Richmond Hts kids play for the same AAU program? Isn't there a limit on how many kids from the same HS can play AAU together?

Someone should very easily be able to provide what AAU team these RH kids team up on...but if you notice no one has ever been able to provide this. It's hilarious.

You figure one of you could Google the info and provide facts but no one ever does. Weird.
 
I think a more centralized venue and going back to (Thurs-Sat.) schedule would bump attendance.

I don't think the kids really care where they play, so I think it has to be about creating a better atmosphere.

I think an even smaller venue would make a better experience for the kids.

I watched the NCAA D2 women final at ODU...only seats 2,000 seats, but the atmosphere was phenomenal.

They should look at Battelle Hall in Columbus as an option.
 
cdub4 said:
Speaking of





Richmond Hts HC is not an AAU program director and never has been.

I wish people would stick to facts on these boards.

You are correct by stating most of the people posting are really uninformed and NEVER provide facts.

For example, what Richmond Hts kids play for the same AAU program? Isn't there a limit on how many kids from the same HS can play AAU together?

Someone should very easily be able to provide what AAU team these RH kids team up on...but if you notice no one has ever been able to provide this. It's hilarious.

You figure one of you could Google the info and provide facts but no one ever does. Weird.
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I don't really care about AAU...Richmond Heights has some very talented system kids, but to do what they have been doing...you have to get some good transfers to keep lineup beefed up (which has happened)...if they are following the rules...great (more power to them).

021-22 Richmond Heights
#21 Josiah Harris (Sr) **Played freshman season @ Canton GlenOak
#34, London Maiden (Sr) **Played junior season @ Benedictine
#11, Detric Hearst (Sr) **Played junior season @ Benedictine
Loyal Foster (So) **Transferred to Youngstown Boardman

2022-23 Richmond Heights
#1, De-Erick Barber (So)
#2, Demarris Winters (So)
#5, Jeremy Wilson (Jr) **Played @ Solon in 21-22
#11, Dorian Jones (So)
#22, Hosea Steele Jr. (Jr) **Played @ Cleveland Heights in 21-22
#3, Micheal McWilliams (Jr)
#00 Braylen Salters (Jr) **Played MS basketball @ Bedford High
#10, Chevy Dozier
#12, Joey Emory
#21, Tyson Garner (Jr)
#23, Sonny Emory (Sr)
 
I think it's been 3 years in a row the high school Final Four has been on the NCAA tournament first weekend. That's a major miss. The casual fan is watching the NCAA tournament.

Alot of the other reasons make sense too. Just not as much in-person interest anymore. Not really sure the venue has much to do with it.
 
mcm.1019 said:
My thoughts. Anybody clamoring for St Johns or The Schott over UD Arena either hasn't been to UD or needs their head examined (I'm talking venue, not location). Crowds are down due to lack of following for some schools, whether it be the private school that lacks that community connection or the simple fact that people just don't go to games like they used to (attendance in my area has been dwindling for years, especially amongst the student section). The Fri-Sun format definitely hurts attendance, but I'm not sure of a way around that with UD hosting the First 4 NCAA games every year.
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Ideal situation would be UD Arena in Columbus! There were 5k at LW-CJ and it felt like 20k, that 5k at UD provides a better atmosphere than 10k at the Schott. Ultimately while fans debate what to do all OHSAA is looking at is the bottom line and if that is good, they are good.
 
Doublehelix said:
I think it's been 3 years in a row the high school Final Four has been on the NCAA tournament first weekend. That's a major miss. The casual fan is watching the NCAA tournament.

Alot of the other reasons make sense too. Just not as much in-person interest anymore. Not really sure the venue has much to do with it.
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To me that doesn't matter much. I don't think the casual fan is going to suddenly attend the State tourney because the opening round of the NCAAs isn't on. And you can certainly still watch portions of the NCAA even if you're attending State, my group has been doing it for years, especially with smart phones.
 
Michigan State Tournament this weekend:

All sessions doubleheaders at MSU.

Semifinals on Thursday/Friday: 12 PM and 5 PM.

Finals on Saturday: 10 AM and 6 PM.

All tickets $12…and you can buy individual sessions.

D4 this morning looked like maybe 4,000 in attendance. Munising v. Wyoming Christian. Small UP town 350 miles away versus suburban private who is in contention in D4 every year.
 
St. John's is not a good option. I was there a few years ago when they hosted the state team wrestling championships. The seats are way to small and there is virtually no leg room. The building is definitely outdated and well past it's prime.
 
TonyC6550 said:
Do they play any defense in "AAU?"
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Yes, some teams do. Our team was built with about 50 % GCL kids who were used to games in the 30's. Our goal was to only allow 12 points in the first half of AAU games, then to coast a bit in the second half. We had many 50-30 pool games and 45-40 late round Sunday games.

You are correct though many "club" teams are 5 individuals working on their offense. However, many tournaments use (or at least did 10 years ago) a power ranking to place similar teams in pool play. So if you continually hit the finals in about every tournament you enter you will face tough pool opponents.

Also , you may know this, but do not confuse club teams with true AAU teams. There is a stark difference between the two in many cases. Teams that win super regional AAU tournaments are nearly always playing tough defense.

If a team wanted to play an iso style offense, they would be met with a 3-2 zone from us featuring at least two big bodies underneath that they would have trouble shooting over. We played man/man so long as they ran a legit offense, but they for dang sure knew they had to work for their points.
 
D4fan said:
Yes, some teams do. Our team was built with about 50 % GCL kids who were used to games in the 30's. Our goal was to only allow 12 points in the first half of AAU games, then to coast a bit in the second half. We had many 50-30 pool games and 45-40 late round Sunday games.

You are correct though many "club" teams are 5 individuals working on their offense. However, many tournaments use (or at least did 10 years ago) a power ranking to place similar teams in pool play. So if you continually hit the finals in about every tournament you enter you will face tough pool opponents.

Also , you may know this, but do not confuse club teams with true AAU teams. There is a stark difference between the two in many cases. Teams that win super regional AAU tournaments are nearly always playing tough defense.

If a team wanted to play an iso style offense, they would be met with a 3-2 zone from us featuring at least two big bodies underneath that they would have trouble shooting over. We played man/man so long as they ran a legit offense, but they for dang sure knew they had to work for their points.
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When I first read "met with a 3-2 zone from us" in AAU my blood started boiling. Once I read on and processed the logic, I was ok. 🤣 🤣 🤣
 
SWOHHoops said:
When I first read "met with a 3-2 zone from us" in AAU my blood started boiling. Once I read on and processed the logic, I was ok. 🤣 🤣 🤣
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I get you. The only thing worse than a zone defense to help kids get better at understanding the game is an isolation offense where you can go to the local park and see that every day of the year.
 
Shorten regular season. Start tournament a week BEFORE NCAA Conference Tournaments start.

Anyone complaining about the Tournament's attendance must not go to many regular season games where attendance is way down.
 
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