3200 on the track at Lakota West

JAVMAN83

Well-known member
NICE JOB to all the guys running in this event & to those who made it happen. Most IMPRESSIVE!
 

Newton's Third

Active member
Should these performances be considered for the all-time 3200m list?
Whoever is current;y keeping the lists in question should make those determinations. However if I were keeping any lists I would consider the marks for "all-time post XC 3200m on the track" lists. I would not consider them for any sort of track & field lists or records. They came outside of the season and time trial events are approached much differently than actual track races.
 

JAVMAN83

Well-known member
Whoever is current;y keeping the lists in question should make those determinations. However if I were keeping any lists I would consider the marks for "all-time post XC 3200m on the track" lists. I would not consider them for any sort of track & field lists or records. They came outside of the season and time trial events are approached much differently than actual track races.
I would respectfully disagree. So does Track & Field News. There are numerous examples of out-of-season AND time-trial type track & field performances that HS athletes have achieved that are or have been on all-time lists. This includes past Ohio greats. Perfect examples are results of HS athletes competing at the '68 Olympic Trials (Casey Carrigan - PV - comes to mind) as well as many other examples. Also, many of the world athletic performances this year, including the women's 5K record, were in very intimate, essentially time-trial meets. I count athletes from 10 different schools at this meeting. To me, that is a lot more than just a club time-trial.

Lancermania - You have my full endorsement in including any of these on the all-time Cincinnati listings!!!
 

Newton's Third

Active member
I would respectfully disagree. So does Track & Field News. There are numerous examples of out-of-season AND time-trial type track & field performances that HS athletes have achieved that are or have been on all-time lists. This includes past Ohio greats. Perfect examples are results of HS athletes competing at the '68 Olympic Trials (Casey Carrigan - PV - comes to mind) as well as many other examples. Also, many of the world athletic performances this year, including the women's 5K record, were in very intimate, essentially time-trial meets. I count athletes from 10 different schools at this meeting. To me, that is a lot more than just a club time-trial.

Lancermania - You have my full endorsement in including any of these on the all-time Cincinnati listings!!!
T&F News considers the season to include summer up until the fall HS or college school year begins, so they considered Carrigan "in season". OHSAA does NOT consider marks outside of the school year season.

As an athlete and a coach I found time trial type races can be much different than races. The stress of trying to win above all else and possibly slowing to assure a better kick are not involved in a time trial situation among other factors. Races also can have positive circumstances but the point is they are different. There are many potential things making it different. If someone held up an umbrella in the infield would it also be counted for indoor? The idea in my eyes is to make comparisons of marks in as similar conditions as possible.

Those currently keeping the records make the decisions and I hardly doubt "your full endorsement," or mine, has any bearing on it. I really have no horse in the race at all. I am just trying to be a devil's advocate for consideration and discussion.
 

JAVMAN83

Well-known member
T&F News considers the season to include summer up until the fall HS or college school year begins, so they considered Carrigan "in season". OHSAA does NOT consider marks outside of the school year season.

As an athlete and a coach I found time trial type races can be much different than races. The stress of trying to win above all else and possibly slowing to assure a better kick are not involved in a time trial situation among other factors. Races also can have positive circumstances but the point is they are different. There are many potential things making it different. If someone held up an umbrella in the infield would it also be counted for indoor? The idea in my eyes is to make comparisons of marks in as similar conditions as possible.

Those currently keeping the records make the decisions and I hardly doubt "your full endorsement," or mine, has any bearing on it. I really have no horse in the race at all. I am just trying to be a devil's advocate for consideration and discussion.
You are incorrect on T&F News. Fall season & winter season outdoor meets (which California has a lot of Jan-Feb outdoor meets) that aren't part of the "normal" season ARE included in T&F News lists. I've got data out the wazzoo to back me up on that.

The August 31st cut-off only applies to Senior athletes, assuming they haven't entered their respective college/university as yet. Joe Dial's national HS records as the first HS vaulter over 18 feet came in August 1981 at all-comer meets in Oklahoma as he hadn't started at OK. State U. as yet.

As long as you are a HS-aged athlete attending a U.S.-based HS, regardless of whether you compete or are eligible for the school team IF they have a team, counts for T&F News, as long as the performances are verified.

As for OHSAA, they're entitled to their own rules. Doesn't mean jack squat to me as I know how poor a record they've had in record-keeping. I can back up my statement on that one as well.

I do agree that time-trials can be and are frequently different than a race. However, as I noted that athletes from at least 10 schools were involved, I'd hardly call this a time-trial, especially given how close the results were at the top end.

My track & field season does not begin in March and end in June. Neither does the national HS season as it's not comprised solely of state HS association seasons.

To all: I wish you a warm & happy Thanksgiving with your respective loved ones.
 

Newton's Third

Active member
You are incorrect on T&F News. Fall season & winter season outdoor meets (which California has a lot of Jan-Feb outdoor meets) that aren't part of the "normal" season ARE included in T&F News lists. I've got data out the wazzoo to back me up on that.

The August 31st cut-off only applies to Senior athletes, assuming they haven't entered their respective college/university as yet. Joe Dial's national HS records as the first HS vaulter over 18 feet came in August 1981 at all-comer meets in Oklahoma as he hadn't started at OK. State U. as yet.

As long as you are a HS-aged athlete attending a U.S.-based HS, regardless of whether you compete or are eligible for the school team IF they have a team, counts for T&F News, as long as the performances are verified.

As for OHSAA, they're entitled to their own rules. Doesn't mean jack squat to me as I know how poor a record they've had in record-keeping. I can back up my statement on that one as well.

I do agree that time-trials can be and are frequently different than a race. However, as I noted that athletes from at least 10 schools were involved, I'd hardly call this a time-trial, especially given how close the results were at the top end.

My track & field season does not begin in March and end in June. Neither does the national HS season as it's not comprised solely of state HS association seasons.

To all: I wish you a warm & happy Thanksgiving with your respective loved ones.
First off and most importantly, I certainly do not want to see what you have up your wazoo.

We are saying essentially the same thing but I am doing a poor job of communicating that. I am trying to say T&FN uses marks outside of the season that many others do not. Do they use the August 31st deadline for class records? Could a soph set a soph record in September? That's how I see this, outside of the designated parameters.

I see CC, indoor track, and outdoor track as seasons. Would you be okay with a CC record in April? I would not only because it is different in many ways, just as I would not be okay with the years the Ohio outdoor state meet held the PV indoor as an indoor record. I respect if someone sees it differently especially those keeping records. If the Lakota West coach sees this as a school record it is his perogative, but the next coach may strike it from the records. Everyone seems to bend things for their current athletes and maybe that is proper.

I also do not see how many schools are involved has anything to do with it. What is the cut-off? 8? 6? Can we throw in 3 11:00 kids to add schools? The difference to me is a time trial is done for no other reason than time. This time trial was not on a long standing schedule. It does not qualify for anything or win any championship. The pressure is off and athletes can concentrate on themselves and splits and might even be coaxing each other along. That is much different than a race especially a championship race.

I respect the record keepers decisions but for me this would be the end of CC season 3200 meter time trial record.
 

yj_runfan

Well-known member
Since the winner, James Schmidt, is from my high school (Oak Hills) I hope it goes in the Cincinnati performance list. 😉
 

JAVMAN83

Well-known member
First off and most importantly, I certainly do not want to see what you have up your wazoo.

We are saying essentially the same thing but I am doing a poor job of communicating that. I am trying to say T&FN uses marks outside of the season that many others do not. Do they use the August 31st deadline for class records? Could a soph set a soph record in September? That's how I see this, outside of the designated parameters.

I see CC, indoor track, and outdoor track as seasons. Would you be okay with a CC record in April? I would not only because it is different in many ways, just as I would not be okay with the years the Ohio outdoor state meet held the PV indoor as an indoor record. I respect if someone sees it differently especially those keeping records. If the Lakota West coach sees this as a school record it is his perogative, but the next coach may strike it from the records. Everyone seems to bend things for their current athletes and maybe that is proper.

I also do not see how many schools are involved has anything to do with it. What is the cut-off? 8? 6? Can we throw in 3 11:00 kids to add schools? The difference to me is a time trial is done for no other reason than time. This time trial was not on a long standing schedule. It does not qualify for anything or win any championship. The pressure is off and athletes can concentrate on themselves and splits and might even be coaxing each other along. That is much different than a race especially a championship race.

I respect the record keepers decisions but for me this would be the end of CC season 3200 meter time trial record.
Touche' on the wazoo comment. I didn't see that one coming, so I enjoyed that :)

Regarding the marks set at this 3200m, technically while set in 2020, they would be listed as 2021 scholastic marks as they are clearly within the 2020-21 calendar school year. Exactly the same as indoor performances of the 2020-21 indoor t&f season set in December meets. No difference whatsoever. As was remarked, we are clearly in unique times, historically-speaking. Everybody has been scrambling for competitions this year, and fortunately, their efforts have been & should be rewarded. Tomorrow is guaranteed to no man or woman, so we have to live today as if it were the last. Also, performances would reflect the class to which kid belonged to at the time of the performance (school calendar year), not to the physical calendar year in question.

Regarding those rare occasions when the HJ & PV have been held within French Fieldhouse after being moved inside due to heavy outdoor rains @ the State meet, technically-speaking, they ARE indoor performances, regardless of whether they are associated with an outdoor meet. I had the same thing happen to me personally at the 1988 Miami U. decathlon in early April of '88. The pole vault portion of the decathlon had to be held inside of Millett Hall ( that was an experience! - the pits were up against the railing - mats were draped over the railing in case you drifted too far left :) - reminded me of vaulting @ Welcome Stadium along the backstretch when it was up against the railing. ). Still part of an outdoor meet, but an indoor performance. I saw the same thing happen at the 1988 U.S. Olympic Trials decathlon - Day 1, the HJ was moved indoors due to heavy rains. Still part of an outdoor meet, but clearly an indoor performance. All statisticians worldwide adhere to this interpretation. Clearly you do not, but performances are not limited to artificial seasons, just to locale & legitimacy of the field & track surface in question.

My whole conversation is based around legitimacy of the performances as being done by U.S.-based, HS-aged athletes, not around whether OHSAA or any other state affiliation would recognize them or not. That is of no consequence to me as a statistician. I follow international guidelines for T&F statisticians almost to a "T", differing only in that HS tracks are almost invariably not certified venues, so issues of track/radius lengths, and levelness of surfaces are almost never measured or certified. I have, however, noted on Cincinnati-area based district records when performances in the shot/discus have been made at facilities with clearly downhill slopes in the landing area. This has happened, and those records are denoted with an "s" to note the sloped surfaces. Pete Miller of Hilliard was denied a national HS record in the discus back in 1967 when his 199' 10" performance was made on a facility with a downhill slope.

Anyway, OHSAA has their thing, and T&F statisticians & everyone else has their criteria-based standards, as you clearly noted.

Hope you all have a wonderful Thanksgiving.
 

Newton's Third

Active member
Glad you laughed. The wazoo comment was intended to lighten things and for you to see that I have opinions but they do not get in the way of listening and trying to understand other's approaches. I believe 2/3 of what I write and use the rest just to stir up others to reveal why they think.

The whole this year is different and they did not have track in 2020 holds a lot of weight for me. It is a very different situation in all regards and might justify things that I would not think is proper in other years.

I do see the seasons as just that not locations. So if we cover the track for a day will it count for indoor marks in your eyes? How about my statement about marks set in all-star games in other sports?

The sloping of fields can always be subjective. The eye test doesn't always work. I remember mid 70's maybe when the state meet in Ohio Stadium and the high jump was held on the infield with jumpers coming off the crown. It must've been one of the first years with artificial turf. They were taking off an inch or more higher than where the standards were set and the surface was very springy yet no one questioned results as far as I know. My kid went out at regional. Nearly the entire field had 1-4" or more improvements from regional that was listed in the program.

I did not mean to use OHSAA as protocol for anything. I was just pointing out how record keeping is determined by those keeping them and they can change at any time, and for our sport especially when a new coach comes in since few ADs care about track records.
 

Firebirdrunner

New member
This meet gave many high schoolers the opportunity to earn/receive college offers and scholarships. It’s no different than the Mason “Dream Mile” where no one cares about winning, it’s more so the time and personal time goals. Ultimately it’s up to the coach’s if these times qualify as a school record but these kids will continue to develop and grow throughout their senior year and I’m sure that we will see all of them lower their previous marks and set new school records this spring. The meet was put on by high schoolers with hopes of giving some local runners an opportunity to run at the collegiate level. Let’s be thankful that the kids were given this opportunity after loosing their entire spring track season last year. Records are meant to be broken and that’s exactly what was done this past weekend.
 

yj_runfan

Well-known member
I did not mean to use OHSAA as protocol for anything. I was just pointing out how record keeping is determined by those keeping them and they can change at any time, and for our sport especially when a new coach comes in since few ADs care about track records.
I was the caretaker of our schools records for a few years for this exact reason. I was the first one to post them online. Luckily, our school finally hired an AD that respects all sports and they picked up my data.
 

Lancermania

Lancers lead the way!
Should these performances be considered for the all-time 3200m list?
When we started building the original list in 2005, it was at the request of skins99, We had a five man committes called SLIMS composed of skins99, lancermania, impartial observer, moemancc, and Seek Up. There are three of us still posting on here fifteen years later. Gone are impartial observer and moemancc. I propose getting a vote of those guys to see if we should include those marks. I am asking JAVMAN83 to replace impartial obsever. moemancc no longer coaches at Moeller to the best of my knowledge but there is a way to ask him as he is on facebook and I am listed as his friend. Seek Up, me, and moemancc did most of the research of the initial list, so I would like to ask moemancc if he wants a vote on this issue.
 

Lancermania

Lancers lead the way!
Another factor of this race to consider is that a reputable timing company (GHG Timing) actually timed the event.
 

JAVMAN83

Well-known member
Just as yj said when he compiled his school list, this is the tough yet fun part. Going back in archives, year books, michrofiche, and trying to find results is the major bulk of the work. Your completed lists are a great resource and tribute to many.
Lancermania & the other guys he mentioned that began the initial lists back in 2005 are what led me about 10 years ago to aid in completing those lists as well as help expand them. It also provided some of the motivation for me to compile the historical listing of all District winners in the Cincinnati area, tracing them back to the inception of those meets to 1923 at Oxford. That project eventually led me into my current research into the State meet, which I anticipate will take at least another 10 years, if not longer. It dwarfs my initial district research that took about 4000 hours over the past decade.
 

JAVMAN83

Well-known member
I've been doing some thinking over the holidays, and the whole 3200m invitational race that was held at Lakota West could be a good starting point for future immediate post-XC season races that could be extended to 5K/10K races on the track. Since these typically aren't even available except during the summer, why not have some races over the longer distances as a way to give kids a way to establish their bona fides at longer distances to college recruiters? After all, there are lots of kids that run 800/1600/3200 in HS that aren't at top of their races, but whose personal range is for longer distances and can win there! I think it would be cool if an invitational post-state was held featuring those races to be open to those that want to and are not participating in one of the big regional comps looking to Nat'ls.

It would also be great to get in an additional competition post-state before going back into winter base-building.

My 2 cents.
 
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RedChief

Member
[/QUOTE]
I've been doing some thinking over the holidays, and the whole 3200m invitational race that was held at Lakota West could be a good starting point for future immediate post-XC season races that could be extended to 5K/10K races on the track. Since these typically aren't even
I've been doing some thinking over the holidays, and the whole 3200m invitational race that was held at Lakota West could be a good starting point for future immediate post-XC season races that could be extended to 5K/10K races on the track. Since these typically aren't even available except during the summer, why not have some races over the longer distances as a way to give kids a way to establish their bona fides at longer distances to college recruiters? After all, there are lots of kids that run 800/1600/3200 in HS that aren't at top of their races, but whose personal range is for longer distances and can win there! I think it would be cool if an invitational post-state was held featuring those races to be open to those that want to and are not participating in one of the big regional comps looking to Nat'ls.

It would also be great to get in an additional competition post-state before going back into winter base-building.

My 2 cents.
The motivation behind the event was to get some times for the kids who want to run in college. Some of these kids had never run the 3200m and some hadn't run it since the spring of 2019. There were a couple races in other states with the same objective that gave runners a jump on other recruits in the country. At the end of the day, several kids in the meet heard from D1 coaches the very next day and I'd expect a few new college commits to arise from this meet. It's a win-win for everyone.
 
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