2019 Cleveland Browns

bedevil

Well-known member
Freddie's job was to get the best out of the talent. Players win games in the NFL, and when the players don't win enough games, one has to start looking around and asking why. Freddie and the coaching staff did not put the players in the best position to succeed - neither in moving the pieces around calling plays, in developing schemes and sets that concealed a play's intent, in improving skill sets from QB footwork to CB cover technique to WR route commitment, nor even in player discipline. Players under-achieved, even and regressed. As a team and as individuals.

I hope the "Freddie gets Baker" hire was pushed by the Haslams on Dorsey. The "analytics" stuff has a real place in today's NFL. It just needs proper focus. General NFL stats like running for 2 on 4th against the league can't be equally applied to Buffalo or Pittsburg, right ? Old defensive coach John Harbaugh uses it as much or more than anyone. Sashi's over-commitment to or under-explanation of his concept of analytical emphasis doesn't mean DePodesta isn't a great asset.

Hire an experienced NFL Head Coach.
I agree that there is a place for analytics in the NFL. My issue with the Browns' system was it was THE focal point of the decision-making process and it was largely void of anyone who understood X's and O's. Harbaugh knows how to apply it. Therein lies the difference. And just to add a touch of irony to the Harbaugh mention, he was on the verge of getting fired at the end of the 2018 season before some late first round draft pick started to show some promise. It's amazing how an excellent quarterback can make a coach look smart. Whether he uses analytics or not. :)
 
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cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
It looks like Ron Rivera is the frontrunner to take over the Washington Redskins. I would have loved to see him come here. Now, I'm hoping for Mike McCarthy. I know there will be many who will tell me to be careful what I wish for, but what I want more than anything is someone who has been to the very top and succeeded. It's not like he would come to a team where the cupboard is bare. And I don't think McCarthy would give a rat's behind if he wins a popularity poll in the locker room. I think that was one of Kitchens' problems.
I think that is meaningless speculation fueled more by the desires of a few DC folks than anything else. The Redskins have Snyder. Haslam looks far better. The players in Cleveland look far better. Rivera will take the best opportunity offered to him, and it's hard to imagine the Redskins checking that box.
 

Levi

Well-known member
I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt when they hired him. It was clear since game 1 he was over his head. There are some good candidates IMHO. Rivera would be good but it appears he may be headed elsewhere. Perhaps McCarthy. I really do not want to see McDaniels get the job
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
As an outsider looking in Cleveland should do everything in its power short of kidnapping and holding a relative for ransom, to get Ron Rivera to take the job.

I think this job would be of interest to a guy like Rivera if he was given CONTROL. Expectations are lower in Cleveland then Dallas and working for JJ does not seem like a good fit for any coach. A guy like Rivera likes smash mouth defense and running the football and with those two RB's and an aggressive off season signing O-linemen the Browns could be the type of team that wins in the AFC North.

And Rivera is the kind of guy who could reign in a QB like Mayfield. Sure he regressed but it's insane to talk about moving on from him.

As for Meyer & the Oklahoma coach - are you kidding me. I would ONLY take the Oklahoma coach if he came with the best defensive coordinator in the NFL and he agreed to give that coordinator final say on everything involving the D.

As for Meyer, great college coach but IMO he would be a disaster in the NFL. At the very least when I interviewed Meyer I would ask him to explain what he didn't see in Burrow. Then I would ask him how a guy could dominate college football for so long and produce so view outstanding NFL QB's - remember Nick Saban bombed in the NFL.
Agreed.

I'd think that the NYG might look good to Rivera, too. Better than Dallas or the Skins. He's waiting for Black Monday, no doubt.
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt when they hired him. It was clear since game 1 he was over his head. There are some good candidates IMHO. Rivera would be good but it appears he may be headed elsewhere. Perhaps McCarthy. I really do not want to see McDaniels get the job
McDaniels is waiting for the NE job. Did you see the Bill & Nick special on HBO ? Bill has done it all. Almost.

Only one thing remains unfinished, and that is returning the Browns to glory. Bill is coming back to Cleveland to right Art Modell's wrong and to finish what he started here.
 
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cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
Greg Roman was once Paul Brown's personal assistant, as a very young man. '64, maybe ? Roman's uncle was a Clevelander and a friend of PB, also fired by Art like Bill Belichick was. He'll be Bill's OC.

Art's three great wrongs will be finally made right next year.
 

bedevil

Well-known member
I think that is meaningless speculation fueled more by the desires of a few DC folks than anything else. The Redskins have Snyder. Haslam looks far better. The players in Cleveland look far better. Rivera will take the best opportunity offered to him, and it's hard to imagine the Redskins checking that box.
I hope you're right, but I wouldn't go too far out on that limb regarding Haslam > than Snyder. That's a narrow margin for error, in my view.
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
I agree that there is a place for analytics in the NFL. My issue with the Browns' system was it was THE focal point of the decision-making process and it was largely void of anyone who understood X's and O's. Harbaugh knows how to apply it. Therein lies the difference. And just to add a touch of irony to the Harbaugh mention, he was on the verge of getting fired at the end of the 2018 season before some late first round draft pick started to show some promise. It's amazing how an excellent quarterback can make a coach look smart. Whether he uses analytics or not. :)
I don't think LJ has that kind of success anywhere else, and not even nearly as much without the addition of Roman to the Baltimore staff.
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
I hope you're right, but I wouldn't go too far out on that limb regarding Haslam > than Snyder. That's a narrow margin for error, in my view.
Well, that's really hard to say, unless you believe all the musings of sports media hacks. Hyperbole, I assume ?

There is quite a lot of stupid talk made ABOUT Haslam, but not nearly as much as what has been made BY Snyder.

I mean, what are the five worst football things Haslam has done, after letting the homeless guy talk him into drafting Johnny Football ?
 

bedevil

Well-known member
I don't think LJ has that kind of success anywhere else, and not even nearly as much without the addition of Roman to the Baltimore staff.
He did all right at Louisville. Won the Heisman.

And that's why I'm not ready to dismiss Mayfield as a one-hit wonder. I think with the proper coaching and system, he can be a very good quarterback. He doesn't have Jackson's legs, but he has a better arm and, if 2018 was any indication, better accuracy. Next year will be a very pivotal year in his development.
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
He did all right at Louisville. Won the Heisman.

And that's why I'm not ready to dismiss Mayfield as a one-hit wonder. I think with the proper coaching and system, he can be a very good quarterback. He doesn't have Jackson's legs, but he has a better arm and, if 2018 was any indication, better accuracy. Next year will be a very pivotal year in his development.
Sure. Tebow et al, 15 Heisman QBs in the last 20 years. Most flop in the NFL.

Like Lamar, Baker needs the right coaches, the right plan, and the right attitude to have shot. Like you say, next year is huge, and that is why we aren't f__ing around with Freddie.
 

bedevil

Well-known member
Well, that's really hard to say, unless you believe all the musings of sports media hacks. Hyperbole, I assume ?

There is quite a lot of stupid talk made ABOUT Haslam, but not nearly as much as what has been made BY Snyder.

I mean, what are the five worst football things Haslam has done, after letting the homeless guy talk him into drafting Johnny Football ?
Well, Manziel is a good place to start.
Hiring Hue Jackson.
Keeping Hue Jackson.
Letting an Ivy Leaguer with no football experience run the front office.
Filling the front office with mostly non-football people.
Letting analytics rule the day in decision-making.
Raising ticket prices to (for starters) $185 a shot for a team that was one game under .500.
 

bedevil

Well-known member
Sure. Tebow et al, 15 Heisman QBs in the last 20 years. Most flop in the NFL.

Like Lamar, Baker needs the right coaches, the right plan, and the right attitude to have shot. Like you say, next year is huge, and that is why we aren't f__ing around with Freddie.
Whoa. We're not talking about Tebow. You asked about Jackson and what success he enjoyed prior to Baltimore. I merely pointed out that winning the Heisman was a notable success. And, he's doing all right, so far, in the NFL, considering he's going to be the Most Valuable Player. In fairness, few thought he was going to reach this level of excellence coming out of college.
 

clarkgriswold

Well-known member
Does Baker have the drive to get better? He's going to have to prove that he does. Allen, Jackson and Darnold all improved in year 2. Baker regressed.

Taking all of the press conjecture out of the assessment of the Haslams, at the end of the day the true assessment of the Haslam regime is the record on the field, and that's abominable.
 

bedevil

Well-known member
Does Baker have the drive to get better? He's going to have to prove that he does. Allen, Jackson and Darnold all improved in year 2. Baker regressed.

Taking all of the press conjecture out of the assessment of the Haslams, at the end of the day the true assessment of the Haslam regime is the record on the field, and that's abominable.
I truly believe he does, Clark. The same competitiveness and cockiness that drove him to the Heisman Trophy in college can manifest itself in the coming season, if channeled properly. I think he got the rudest of wake-up calls. I think it came a little too easy for him his rookie year and he headed to an off-season filled with endorsements, accolades, local hero worship, and a head coach who was selected largely on the strength of his play and the rapport he seemingly built up with him. Why wouldn't he think it would be more of the same in 2019 given the talent on offense?

Welcome to the NFL.

I think that competitiveness will result in him focusing on what really matters. He needs to have all the parts around him commit to it, as well. That's why a qualified person with genuine head coaching success and gravitas is needed to rein in the egos and individualism and Mayfield has to lead the way, as can his attention-seeking wide receiver by getting his tail into camp after his sports hernia heals. I'd love to see this team with total buy-in to a system they believe in and a coach they believe in.
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
Whoa. We're not talking about Tebow. You asked about Jackson and what success he enjoyed prior to Baltimore. I merely pointed out that winning the Heisman was a notable success. And, he's doing all right, so far, in the NFL, considering he's going to be the Most Valuable Player. In fairness, few thought he was going to reach this level of excellence coming out of college.
Just in the interest of clarity. "Whoa!", yerself.


Actually, I did not ask a thing about Lamar Jackson’s past successes. I used the present tense, “has”. What I was saying was that I do not believe that Lamar Jackson would have anything resembling that same success he has had without the perfect storm that he has benefited from in Baltimore. I’m pretty sure no one can really argue with that. Maybe with Shanahan, but that wasn’t going to happen. Maybe with old Pete the Cheat, but that wasn’t going to happen either.

As far as Heisman winners, you brought up the Heisman Trophy all on your own, which leads us to Tebow and company of the past 20 years. My point is that winning the Heisman trophy as a quarterback is probably as bad a predictor of NFL QB success as one could find.



You and I agree on far more than we disagree about.
 
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cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
Does Baker have the drive to get better? He's going to have to prove that he does. Allen, Jackson and Darnold all improved in year 2. Baker regressed.

Taking all of the press conjecture out of the assessment of the Haslams, at the end of the day the true assessment of the Haslam regime is the record on the field, and that's abominable.
Those guys all had quality coaching around them, at least at the position level. The fabulous Baker boys were an obvious failure, which is I guess what you get when you treat a 23-year-old QB like a finished product
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
I truly believe he does, Clark. The same competitiveness and cockiness that drove him to the Heisman Trophy in college can manifest itself in the coming season, if channeled properly. I think he got the rudest of wake-up calls. I think it came a little too easy for him his rookie year and he headed to an off-season filled with endorsements, accolades, local hero worship, and a head coach who was selected largely on the strength of his play and the rapport he seemingly built up with him. Why wouldn't he think it would be more of the same in 2019 given the talent on offense?

Welcome to the NFL.

I think that competitiveness will result in him focusing on what really matters. He needs to have all the parts around him commit to it, as well. That's why a qualified person with genuine head coaching success and gravitas is needed to rein in the egos and individualism and Mayfield has to lead the way, as can his attention-seeking wide receiver by getting his tail into camp after his sports hernia heals. I'd love to see this team with total buy-in to a system they believe in and a coach they believe in.
Could not agree more.

Baker speaks frankly, and I love that. He just speaks a bit too often. Not every question demands or even deserves the complete responses that he sometimes gives. It’s OK for him to keep his mouth shut more often
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
Well, Manziel is a good place to start. I excluded that one, but it was with a #22 pick gained in a decent trade iirc. Snyder, on the other hand, got fleeced big-time trading up for RG3.

Hiring Hue Jackson. He was pretty widely regarded as a top choice among those available.

Keeping Hue Jackson. Hue should have never seen the start of a third year. Guilt over giving him a "tanked" roster and sensitivity to profuse criticisms of past premature firings give the Haslams a complete pass on bringing him back for a second year, but they should have seen that a respectable coach could have backed into a few wins. Not Dan Snyder bad. Not even close.

Letting an Ivy Leaguer with no football experience run the front office.
Filling the front office with mostly non-football people.
Letting analytics rule the day in decision-making.
A cap-ologist and contract guy with some football experience. They still had "football guy" scouts. Maybe Sashi had too much draft authority, but he did a great job trading down adding value, and out of those current years to accumulate future value. Tanking had proven to be a viable strategy in the NBA and MLB both, and they tried it. Fairly successfully. Then they hired Dorsey after bottoming out. That is not "bad owner" stuff like Snyder.

Raising ticket prices to (for starters) $185 a shot for a team that was one game under .500.
OK. I'd guess there are quite a few bad owners by that standard. Not Snyder bad.
mine^ bolded above

The Haslams are not bad owners. Inexperienced owners. Dan Snyder should look far worse to any prospective Head Coach.
 

joesports

Well-known member
The scapegoat is gone ... while he deserved some of the blame ... others who IMO also deserved blame need to take warning ...

#1 John Dorsey ... who IMO deserves more blame than Freddie ... the hiring of an inexperienced coach and pairing him with a roster that needed an experienced coach ... the trading an very good OL when his pick to replace him was a complete bust ... trading a decent DE, who would have been a great #3 DE, for a special teamer ... especially when you cut a quality rotation DE the year before ... both the offensive line and defensive line were a mess most of the season ... after a QB, football starts with OL/DL ... he wanted pretty toys and not grunts that make teams good

#2 Baker Mayfield ... came into camp fat & happy and over confident ... needs to get the chip and work ethic that came with that chip back.. needs to learn to play within a system ... IMO he look completely uncomfortable in the pocket and only confident when scrambling ... needs to become a effective pocket passer

#3 the Haslams ... stay out of football decisions ... this revolving door coaches MUST STOP ... get a quality experienced NFL coach and let him do his job ... my pick would be Josh McDaniels or Leslie Frazier

HM ... Myles Garrett, OBJ, & Steve Wilks
 
The scapegoat is gone ... while he deserved some of the blame ... others who IMO also deserved blame need to take warning ...

#1 John Dorsey ... who IMO deserves more blame than Freddie ... the hiring of an inexperienced coach and pairing him with a roster that needed an experienced coach ... the trading an very good OL when his pick to replace him was a complete bust ... trading a decent DE, who would have been a great #3 DE, for a special teamer ... especially when you cut a quality rotation DE the year before ... both the offensive line and defensive line were a mess most of the season ... after a QB, football starts with OL/DL ... he wanted pretty toys and not grunts that make teams good

#2 Baker Mayfield ... came into camp fat & happy and over confident ... needs to get the chip and work ethic that came with that chip back.. needs to learn to play within a system ... IMO he look completely uncomfortable in the pocket and only confident when scrambling ... needs to become a effective pocket passer

#3 the Haslams ... stay out of football decisions ... this revolving door coaches MUST STOP

HM ... Myles Garrett, OBJ
So Freddie is a scapegoat and the coaching door has to stop revolving. Just swallow your pride and admit you were wrong when you were banging the drum a few weeks ago to keep him. But I’ll agree with you that Dorsey and Haslams are responsible for hiring him but regardless Freddie had a job to do and failed miserably. He and his staff take their medicine on this one.
 

clarkgriswold

Well-known member
I truly believe he does, Clark. The same competitiveness and cockiness that drove him to the Heisman Trophy in college can manifest itself in the coming season, if channeled properly. I think he got the rudest of wake-up calls. I think it came a little too easy for him his rookie year and he headed to an off-season filled with endorsements, accolades, local hero worship, and a head coach who was selected largely on the strength of his play and the rapport he seemingly built up with him. Why wouldn't he think it would be more of the same in 2019 given the talent on offense?

Welcome to the NFL.

I think that competitiveness will result in him focusing on what really matters. He needs to have all the parts around him commit to it, as well. That's why a qualified person with genuine head coaching success and gravitas is needed to rein in the egos and individualism and Mayfield has to lead the way, as can his attention-seeking wide receiver by getting his tail into camp after his sports hernia heals. I'd love to see this team with total buy-in to a system they believe in and a coach they believe in.
He does seem to thrive when he has a chip on his shoulder and thinks he needs to prove himself. Let's hope this miserable season does that.

I heard a good analogy for the Freddie hiring. Dorsey and the Haslams bought a Ferrari then handed the keys to a kid with his temps.
 

joesports

Well-known member
So Freddie is a scapegoat and the coaching door has to stop revolving. Just swallow your pride and admit you were wrong when you were banging the drum a few weeks ago to keep him. But I’ll agree with you that Dorsey and Haslams are responsible for hiring him but regardless Freddie had a job to do and failed miserably. He and his staff take their medicine on this one.
First off ... I agree Freddie had to go ... when I first said I he should stay, I also said as long as the doors don’t come off ... we’ll losing to the 1-14 Bengals pretty much shows the doors are off ... second, it was more about not doing the same thing that has not worked for the past 20 years than Freddie .... Finally, if you think Freddie is solely to blame for this season ... your wrong ... John Dorsey has made some really dumb moves (besides hiring Freddie) also
 
He does seem to thrive when he has a chip on his shoulder and thinks he needs to prove himself. Let's hope this miserable season does that.

I heard a good analogy for the Freddie hiring. Dorsey and the Haslams bought a Ferrari then handed the keys to a kid with his temps.
I think the better analogy is they made a car that looks like a Ferrari, but put a Kia engine in it.
 

cabezadecaballo

Well-known member
The scapegoat is gone ... while he deserved some of the blame ... others who IMO also deserved blame need to take warning ...

#1 John Dorsey ... who IMO deserves more blame than Freddie ... the hiring of an inexperienced coach and pairing him with a roster that needed an experienced coach ... the trading an very good OL when his pick to replace him was a complete bust ... trading a decent DE, who would have been a great #3 DE, for a special teamer ... especially when you cut a quality rotation DE the year before ... both the offensive line and defensive line were a mess most of the season ... after a QB, football starts with OL/DL ... he wanted pretty toys and not grunts that make teams good

#2 Baker Mayfield ... came into camp fat & happy and over confident ... needs to get the chip and work ethic that came with that chip back.. needs to learn to play within a system ... IMO he look completely uncomfortable in the pocket and only confident when scrambling ... needs to become a effective pocket passer

#3 the Haslams ... stay out of football decisions ... this revolving door coaches MUST STOP ... get a quality experienced NFL coach and let him do his job ... my pick would be Josh McDaniels or Leslie Frazier

HM ... Myles Garrett, OBJ, & Steve Wilks
Scapegoat, huh ?

There is some truth to what you post, in greater or lesser degrees for each point. Whoop-de-doo, joe. He obviously couldn't overcome these problems or any of his own. Very little besides the penalties got any better at all through the season, and some got worse.

Waffle House Fred was obviously both a source of many difficulties and a failure at heading off many other difficulties. Gameday and season-long difficulties. EVERY head coach was once a first-time head coach, and there is an inevitable "sink or swim" aspect to every one of them. They ALL are "in over their heads" on day one, and they have to swim. Freddie sunk. It takes an idiot to blame others for Freddie's personal failings as an NFL Head Coach.

Get on the Freddie Excuse Train if you want. You won't have me there if you do.
 
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