3 Divisions
- Thread starter Three Divisions
- Start date
In complete agreeance with this, I think this helps with the schools like Legacy or even back a few years ago in St. John who have these multiple state champs and then the school disappears after a group or two go through.
Bread-N-butter
Member
Instead, Lets just have a true 4th at the district.
iamjacksuglythrowaway
Active member
I love how the one division guy is ignoring the actual Hs coaches explaining how school size matters and whatnot.
One Division
Member
several High School coaches have agreed that having 64 qualifiers over 1 or 2 Divisions would increase opportunities and exposure for kids than the current 48 qualifiers.
One Division
Member
Three Divisions
New member
I never said that Mr. One division.
Rob Sherrill
New member
For a state with as many schools as Ohio has, three is about right.
Indiana is often brought up as a model to emulate by the single-classification crowd. The big schools dominate in Indiana, and have for a long time. Somebody posted this on the Indiana Mat forum about the 14 state champions this year:
106 - school enrollment 1,819
113 - school enrollment 2,445
120 - school enrollment 2,063
126 - school enrollment 1,099 (this is Indianapolis Cathedral, one of the most powerful parochial schools in the state - multi-time team champion. They compete in the IHSWCA state duals in 4A)
132 - school enrollment 2,810
138 - school enrollment 2,855
145 - school enrollment 2,055
152 - school enrollment 1,815 (this is Floyd Central, which competes in the IHSWCA state duals in 3A despite their large size)
160 - school enrollment 497 (this is Evansville Mater Dei, which obviously needs no introduction. They compete in the IHSWCA state duals in 4A, and blew away the field this year)
170 - school enrollment 1,225
182 - school enrollment 497 (this is Mater Dei again, see 160)
195 - school enrollment 225 (this is Indianapolis Lutheran, which may not have had a state placewinner before this kid, Hayden Filipovich)
220 - school enrollment 1,747
285 - school enrollment 2,412
The top 12 teams in the team standings were all from the 4A dual classification. Floyd Central was 13th.
I went ahead and added up the overall class breakdown individually:
Champions - 4A, 11; 3A, 2; 2A, 0; 1A, 1
Finalists - 4A, 19; 3A, 6; 2A, 2; 1A, 1
Placewinners - 4A, 73; 3A, 27; 2A, 6; 1A, 6
These numbers are typical. A similar setup in Ohio, with everyone tossed in the same qualifying pool, would produce state tournaments dominated by the biggest Division I schools and parochials. There's no reason to think otherwise based on the evidence.
Indiana is often brought up as a model to emulate by the single-classification crowd. The big schools dominate in Indiana, and have for a long time. Somebody posted this on the Indiana Mat forum about the 14 state champions this year:
106 - school enrollment 1,819
113 - school enrollment 2,445
120 - school enrollment 2,063
126 - school enrollment 1,099 (this is Indianapolis Cathedral, one of the most powerful parochial schools in the state - multi-time team champion. They compete in the IHSWCA state duals in 4A)
132 - school enrollment 2,810
138 - school enrollment 2,855
145 - school enrollment 2,055
152 - school enrollment 1,815 (this is Floyd Central, which competes in the IHSWCA state duals in 3A despite their large size)
160 - school enrollment 497 (this is Evansville Mater Dei, which obviously needs no introduction. They compete in the IHSWCA state duals in 4A, and blew away the field this year)
170 - school enrollment 1,225
182 - school enrollment 497 (this is Mater Dei again, see 160)
195 - school enrollment 225 (this is Indianapolis Lutheran, which may not have had a state placewinner before this kid, Hayden Filipovich)
220 - school enrollment 1,747
285 - school enrollment 2,412
The top 12 teams in the team standings were all from the 4A dual classification. Floyd Central was 13th.
I went ahead and added up the overall class breakdown individually:
Champions - 4A, 11; 3A, 2; 2A, 0; 1A, 1
Finalists - 4A, 19; 3A, 6; 2A, 2; 1A, 1
Placewinners - 4A, 73; 3A, 27; 2A, 6; 1A, 6
These numbers are typical. A similar setup in Ohio, with everyone tossed in the same qualifying pool, would produce state tournaments dominated by the biggest Division I schools and parochials. There's no reason to think otherwise based on the evidence.
One Division
Member
Why would you compare us to Indiana?
Everyone knows they have a screwed up system.
We should emulate Pennsylvania.
more participants.
more recognition.
more interest.
More retention.
more successful.
Pennsylvania has the best model in the country.
Indiana has the worst.
Everyone knows they have a screwed up system.
We should emulate Pennsylvania.
more participants.
more recognition.
more interest.
More retention.
more successful.
Pennsylvania has the best model in the country.
Indiana has the worst.
iamjacksuglythrowaway
Active member
Which ones? Aren’t you the one who said school size doesn’t matter to individual sports.. like the typical dad who’s never actually run a program
One Division
Member
I am not a Dad. stupid assumption "throwaway jack"
Rob Sherrill
New member
Because Indiana is next door and they're a fairly large state with a single classification. I don't have One Division in my screen name. You do.
In Pennsylvania, AAA is significantly better than AA. They had a AAA vs. AA all-star match for several years and AAA always won pretty easily, which was one reason it was discontinued.
I've had this discussion several times on several forums. The proponents of a single classification support it strictly because of an emotional attachment to the concept. That's OK - wrestling is an emotional sport. Just accept it for what it is.
In Pennsylvania, AAA is significantly better than AA. They had a AAA vs. AA all-star match for several years and AAA always won pretty easily, which was one reason it was discontinued.
I've had this discussion several times on several forums. The proponents of a single classification support it strictly because of an emotional attachment to the concept. That's OK - wrestling is an emotional sport. Just accept it for what it is.
iamjacksuglythrowaway
Active member
When 9.7/10 the people making the “hard core” tuff guy wannabe arguments usually are. It’s not a stretch. Especially when making uninformed statements like “school size doesn’t matter”.
Especially because the way to increase local depth and numbers is to push coaching development and spread out good coaching.. not go with a “solution” that makes it even more likely overall depth will decrease. To be honest I’ve only heard that statement from.. wrestling dads.. or local small school coaches with chips on their shoulder who are the Ohio equivalent of the Southern coaches who get butthurt over how much better northern wrestling is overall.
If there wasn’t low tier, mid tier, and elite level national level tournaments available as close as Harrison and Columbus.. along with Fargo and Super32.. I could see the argument. But scholastic state level wrestling’s job isgrow the sport and produce kids ready for next level if they do choose.
If one wants the best and “purist” competition possible.. they should nut up and go play with the big kids nationally.
Now if you’re one of the short sighted people who’d rather be the big fish in a tiny shrinking pond.. and see wrestling increasingly turn into a rich kid exclusive club sport.. well.. lol buddy lol
One Division
Member
Its so weird that you guys get offended at someones opinion and throw insults and dumb assumptions about who’s opinion it is.
These arguments are complex. Its not a “toughguy stance”.
“several High School coaches have agreed that having 64 qualifiers over 1 or 2 Divisions would increase opportunities and exposure for kids than the current 48 qualifiers.”
you may want to stay out of this discussion since you get offended so easily.
These arguments are complex. Its not a “toughguy stance”.
“several High School coaches have agreed that having 64 qualifiers over 1 or 2 Divisions would increase opportunities and exposure for kids than the current 48 qualifiers.”
you may want to stay out of this discussion since you get offended so easily.
cruiser_96
Well-known member
You should run a poll on Yappi and find out what other people think about 1, 2, or 3 divisions.
GeorgianDragoon
Member
Just enjoy the fact there are kids, whether 0-42 or 42-0, who enjoy this ancient and societally neglected sport. For those who believe in “D1 exceptionalism, we have seen plenty of D2 and D3 kids (and teams) lay the wood on D1 kids and teams this year. These conversations are great.
I appreciate the civility of the banter here. Thanks to all the members.
I appreciate the civility of the banter here. Thanks to all the members.
iamjacksuglythrowaway
Active member
I’m not offended lol. I’m calling it as I see it.
You also seem to keep dodging the fact that you said a ridiculous statement about school size not mattering.. as one of the fundamental parts of your argument.. and keep deliberately ignoring the other valid points people are making...
Again, if purity matters so much to you and you’re not just a wannabe wrestling dad. Put your athletes in national level competitions.
iamjacksuglythrowaway
Active member
It’s not about “exceptionalism”.. it is about the depth of competition and results over time..
I’ve like several others here have coached in multiple divisions and the difference in depth and quality.. especially after the top two guys can’t be overstated.. hell I’ve coached teams and wrestlers in D2 that beat DI kids.. and I’ve also seen far more state qualifiers and placers from D2 and D3 lose to DI kids including non qualifiers.. far more than the other way around.
It’s the same thing that happens with Southern wrestling when compared to the north.. “I know a guy or a team that beat someone from up north once”.. that’s very nice. I’m also well aware both smaller schools and the south are getting better. It still doesn’t change the fact that one Division and/or area is much higher quality overall with more depth.
I’m not even trying to be mean. It’s more bewilderment at people not understanding the basic data.
GeorgianDragoon
Member
No need to be bewildered and assume the superior or exceptional position here. I think people can understand as a hypothetical: If 0.5% of HS males could make good wrestlers and School A has 1000 males, the school will have 5 good wrestlers. If School B has 500 males, the school will have 2.5 great wrestlers. If School C has 200 males, the school will have 1 good wrestler.
Of course we need to define “good wrestler.
I actually am in complete agreement with your position from the moment you first commented. ?
iamjacksuglythrowaway
Active member
Fair enough. The what is “good” is a big part of this. Offering kids chances for relative success is a good thing. And doesn’t prevent kids from going to national tournaments.
Also, it’s not just number of students but the increased likelihood of the better resources, higher number of coaches, and access to facilities. I know of very few DI schools without a dedicated wrestling room or they are more likely to have an extra gym or cafeteria where they can roll out mats.
iamjacksuglythrowaway
Active member
Is Evansville all boys? I know Ohio is one of the few states that actually does classifications based of gender enrollment
Crimsonblooded
Well-known member
Keep that quiet or we might have to redo the numbers ?