Massillon#82
Well-known member
No way, once that money starts rolling in for playoff games they certainly won’t go back. If anything by 2025 we will see every team in the playoffs with 7 game regular seasons. ???
OHSAA extending 2021 playoffs to 12 teams per region
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Sykotyk
Well-known member
Ohio isn't better than PA because of the schedule or playoff format. Ohio football is just better.
There's a false equivalency that since it's better then the format itself is better. But one doesn't really affect the other.
The biggest con to Ohio is starting a week earlier in August is going to suck for heat. Especially 7pm kickoffs. Go back to 8pm for August games. Let the sun set.
Aa for byes, generally they're not good because even though PA has them and no league games are played in week 10 and is surprisingly common in District 10 for teams to cancel their 10th game to "get ready for the playoffs" the results don't really show that to be beneficial. So playing or not playing doesn't seem to be an issue for playoff success. But I can tell you kids would rather play than not play. It's coaches and administrators that think it's somehow better to not play a sport that is rather fleeting for high schoolers. 40 possible regular season games in your entire high school career. Plus playoffs. Who wants to give up even one of them?
There's a false equivalency that since it's better then the format itself is better. But one doesn't really affect the other.
The biggest con to Ohio is starting a week earlier in August is going to suck for heat. Especially 7pm kickoffs. Go back to 8pm for August games. Let the sun set.
Aa for byes, generally they're not good because even though PA has them and no league games are played in week 10 and is surprisingly common in District 10 for teams to cancel their 10th game to "get ready for the playoffs" the results don't really show that to be beneficial. So playing or not playing doesn't seem to be an issue for playoff success. But I can tell you kids would rather play than not play. It's coaches and administrators that think it's somehow better to not play a sport that is rather fleeting for high schoolers. 40 possible regular season games in your entire high school career. Plus playoffs. Who wants to give up even one of them?
Iroquois
Well-known member
Well one thing for sure, it's all about the money !!!!
330Football
Well-known member
How does that change the aspect of a high school kid? Are they different then a kid in PA? Lol
I like the idea for conferences such as the MAC, where a 5-5 team could conceivably win 3 or 4 playoff games in D7.
I also would bet we will have fewer blowouts week 2 of the playoffs. Too many schools figure out how to schedule just to squeeze in at #8. So now week 1 will eliminate those schools and we will have better games on average for week 2 .
I suppose on the other hand I dislike the fact it lessons the accomplishment of "making" the playoffs. In small school ball (div 5-7) , there is so much disparity between the top 3 or 4 in a region and the rest of the field.
Will rounds 1& 2 both be played at top seeds home field?
To me, the most intriguing will be the perineal powers of D1 privates. Many years a team gets hot towards the end but finishes just outside of qualifying due to the fact they lost to very quality teams early in the season. Expect more scenarios like a 5-5 St X to win it all coming from the 11 spot. Or at least to win all games vs public schools.
Will this simply reinsert more private schools back into the top 8 in the region starting week 2 of the playoffs?
I also would bet we will have fewer blowouts week 2 of the playoffs. Too many schools figure out how to schedule just to squeeze in at #8. So now week 1 will eliminate those schools and we will have better games on average for week 2 .
I suppose on the other hand I dislike the fact it lessons the accomplishment of "making" the playoffs. In small school ball (div 5-7) , there is so much disparity between the top 3 or 4 in a region and the rest of the field.
Will rounds 1& 2 both be played at top seeds home field?
To me, the most intriguing will be the perineal powers of D1 privates. Many years a team gets hot towards the end but finishes just outside of qualifying due to the fact they lost to very quality teams early in the season. Expect more scenarios like a 5-5 St X to win it all coming from the 11 spot. Or at least to win all games vs public schools.
Will this simply reinsert more private schools back into the top 8 in the region starting week 2 of the playoffs?
ELKS Strong
Well-known member
I love it! My Elks would have made the playoffs last year and got a rematch vs. Springboro.
y2h
Well-known member
It waters down the accomplishment of making the playoffs. Used to be you had to earn it, now you pretty much just field a team and you're in.
Instead of expanding football they should be tightening who qualifies in other sports.
y2h
Well-known member
You know the first time a top seed gets upset they are blaming the bye weekend.
Sunuvaditchdigger
Member
This discussion started long before week 10 of last year.
Now, did the results in R18 and R23 influence some coaches' decisions on the vote? Possibly. But, if that is the standard, then the statement could also be "We're letting in 3–7 teams all because we a) don't trust that OHSAA isn't going to gerrymander bizarre-looking regions again and b) don't trust that OHSAA isn't going to retroactively overturn forfeit results and scramble the points on Wednesday in Week 10." Those decisions created some ... distrust in "the system," and when confidence is lower, schools and coaches are more likely to vote in expansions to try to preempt themselves from being the next weird case.
Scipio
Well-known member
Article for The Athletic on potential collapse of OHSAA if there are no fall sports, namely football playoffs with paying fans:
OHSAA faces major changes, possible collapse, if there’s no football in the fall
By Tom Reed and Aaron Portzline 58m ago
The state’s governing body for high school sports announced Wednesday plans to significantly expand its football playoff field for 2021.
That’s if the organization that regulates 816 member high schools and provides financial backing for all their tournaments survives this calendar year.
A confluence of bad luck, poor planning and dwindling attendance has pushed the Ohio High School Athletic Association to the precipice of financial ruin, causing those inside the organization to wonder if they can withstand a fall season without football due to concerns over the COVID-19 pandemic. It’s also forcing member schools to confront the uncomfortable question of who would organize and operate postseason tournaments in a world absent the 113-year-old non-profit association.
OHSAA executive director Jerry Snodgrass believes the association could weather a fall calendar with little or no gate receipts coming from tournaments. Nearly 80 percent of the organization’s revenues are generated through tickets sold at sectional, district, regional and state playoff games in all sports.
Other sources told The Athletic such a scenario would doom the OHSAA, which produced no revenue this spring and limited revenue this past winter because of cancellations to the boys and girls state basketball tournaments and the state wrestling meet.
OHSAA officials also said despite internet rumors there is no contingency plan to move high school football to the 2021 spring calendar.
Every state high school governing body is dealing with the same set of unknowns regarding a virus that reportedly has led to more than 92,000 deaths and cratered the nation’s economy. The OHSAA, however, is one of the few such associations that does not charge membership fees. It also does not receive tax dollars from the state.
“We are working on a budget, as many states are, that includes fall sports revenues and one without fall sports revenues,” Snodgrass said. “I’m very confident we will be OK. We will have to make significant cuts — and I mean significant cuts — but we will still exist.
“Will we look the same? Absolutely not. … You hope for the best and plan for the worst. By doing that, we stay where we are, but we look different. Very different.”
Snodgrass, named OHSAA executive director May 4, 2018, confirmed he’s taken a 25 percent pay cut. Other high-level officials have seen salaries reduced 20 percent. The association already has laid off one full-time employee and several part-timers.
The executive director confirmed the OHSAA has received a stimulus loan worth more than $500,000 through the national Payroll Protection Plan. Other cost-saving measures, Snodgrass said, also are being considered.
But sources said without tournament money from football and other revenue-producing fall sports such as soccer and volleyball, the future of the OHSAA is in serious jeopardy. Football is one of the organization’s big money makers along with boys and girls basketball.
“No football playoffs puts the OHSAA out of business,” a northeast Ohio athletic director said.
“We will fold if there are no fall sports,” another source said.
Officials from some schools have told Snodgrass they would be willing to reinstate membership fees to keep the OHSAA afloat. The executive director said streaming tournament games on the internet with advertising is another option if the contests are played in empty stadiums or limited to small crowds.
Ohio State athletic director Gene Smith said Wednesday the Buckeyes might allow 22,000 to 50,000 fans into their 100,000-seat stadium, depending on the state and national guidelines at the time.
A similar model could be adopted by Ohio high schools, but unlike major college programs they don’t have lucrative television deals to offset gate-receipt losses. Some high schools might choose not to even play in that scenario. The domino effect would be ominous. One northeast Ohio school superintendent told The Athletic football revenues pay for equipment used in all sports.
Adding to the dilemma is the fact Governor Mike DeWine announced earlier month the state plans to slash $300 million from K-12 public school funding because of the virus’s economic impact.
“My job is to right the ship,” Snodgrass said. “My job is to see us through this crisis. That’s mission No. 1 for me.”
Official basketballs from the state tournament. (Photo by Scott W. Grau / Getty Images)
The OHSAA is to high school and middle school sports what the NCAA is to college athletics. Each is loathed by some fans for how they choose to punish athletes and schools for recruiting violations and various infractions. The OHSAA is sued at least 20 to 30 times a year, a source said.
Such is life for the sheriffs of the sports world.
But many athletic directors, coaches and school officials cannot imagine a landscape without the OHSAA. And it’s not just about bringing rule breakers to justice.
State officials at the OHSAA and its six satellite districts provide structure and finance the postseason tournaments. There are:
• Limited tournament entry fees for schools.
• Bonuses returned to schools for ticket sales in some sports.
• Reimbursements to schools of selected regional and state tournaments. The OHSAA returned more than $2.6 million to member schools last school year.
What organizations or state coaches associations could afford to book venues, sell tickets, pay officials and set up accommodations for media and sponsors?
• In absence of order, chaos develops,” Snodgrass said. “Organizational structure is a necessary evil to create rules and regulations that affect everyone. They also are for the betterment of everyone.”
The OHSAA’s budget is comprised of three main sources of revenue: 78 percent from tournament ticket sales, 11 percent from annual officiating permit renewals and 11 percent from corporate sponsorships.
Nobody budgets for a pandemic, but it’s fair to wonder why the OHSAA is so ill-prepared to face a short-term crisis.
Multiple sources attribute it to bad long-term planning and not having the vision to squirrel away money to endure economic downturns. Snodgrass shoulders some blame, but he’s been the face of the organization for just two years.
“For about 90 years, the OHSAA was printing money,” one source said.
Another source added it was spending money “like a drunken sailor” throughout much of the last two decades.
In 2012, the OHSAA purchased a second office building next to its headquarters in suburban Columbus at the cost of $900,000. While the sale price was reasonable, sources said, the new building sat unoccupied for six years.
Snodgrass confirmed the association might need to sell it to raise money.
The OHSAA board of directors had been working on two-year terms. Critics say that’s not long enough to gain a full understanding of how to operate the business. The association recently increased the term to three years.
As the association continued to increase spending, it was dealt an unexpected blow. During the past two decades, enrollment in members schools have dropped. More importantly, attendance at postseason tournament games began to decline sharply. Ticket sales are the lifeblood of the OHSAA.
Not since LeBron James won his third and final basketball title with Akron St. Vincent-St. Mary in 2003 has the OHSAA enjoyed a sellout at a state football (Canton/Massillon) or state basketball events (Columbus).
Various reasons, including the decision to televise state football and boys and girls basketball games, have been offered for plummeting attendance figures.
“Overall, the drop-off has been significant over the last 12 years,” Snodgrass said.
The shortfall has invited scrutiny to even small details. One item in the northeast Ohio district meeting minutes last month raised suspicions.
According to the report:
The state board has applied for a federal grant . . . in hopes of using this one-time funding to close out and pay off any outstanding pension debts and costs associated with reducing staff and/or transitioning staffing levels and job responsibilities.
Some wonder if using national stimulus money from the Payroll Protection Plan for such means is permissible.
Snodgrass said he wasn’t part of that teleconference — it’s run by a board of directors — and would need to get clarification.
In the meantime, the OHSAA and its member schools must hope the impact of the virus abates and limits on large gatherings are relaxed. There’s also concern about a second COVID-19 wave hitting the state. What happens if fall sports do resume only to have them suspended before tournament time?
“There are a lot of people nervous right now,” one athletic director said about the state of the OHSAA. “There are a lot of doomsday scenarios being put out there.”
OHSAA faces major changes, possible collapse, if there’s no football in the fall
By Tom Reed and Aaron Portzline 58m ago
The state’s governing body for high school sports announced Wednesday plans to significantly expand its football playoff field for 2021.
That’s if the organization that regulates 816 member high schools and provides financial backing for all their tournaments survives this calendar year.
A confluence of bad luck, poor planning and dwindling attendance has pushed the Ohio High School Athletic Association to the precipice of financial ruin, causing those inside the organization to wonder if they can withstand a fall season without football due to concerns over the COVID-19 pandemic. It’s also forcing member schools to confront the uncomfortable question of who would organize and operate postseason tournaments in a world absent the 113-year-old non-profit association.
OHSAA executive director Jerry Snodgrass believes the association could weather a fall calendar with little or no gate receipts coming from tournaments. Nearly 80 percent of the organization’s revenues are generated through tickets sold at sectional, district, regional and state playoff games in all sports.
Other sources told The Athletic such a scenario would doom the OHSAA, which produced no revenue this spring and limited revenue this past winter because of cancellations to the boys and girls state basketball tournaments and the state wrestling meet.
OHSAA officials also said despite internet rumors there is no contingency plan to move high school football to the 2021 spring calendar.
Every state high school governing body is dealing with the same set of unknowns regarding a virus that reportedly has led to more than 92,000 deaths and cratered the nation’s economy. The OHSAA, however, is one of the few such associations that does not charge membership fees. It also does not receive tax dollars from the state.
“We are working on a budget, as many states are, that includes fall sports revenues and one without fall sports revenues,” Snodgrass said. “I’m very confident we will be OK. We will have to make significant cuts — and I mean significant cuts — but we will still exist.
“Will we look the same? Absolutely not. … You hope for the best and plan for the worst. By doing that, we stay where we are, but we look different. Very different.”
Snodgrass, named OHSAA executive director May 4, 2018, confirmed he’s taken a 25 percent pay cut. Other high-level officials have seen salaries reduced 20 percent. The association already has laid off one full-time employee and several part-timers.
The executive director confirmed the OHSAA has received a stimulus loan worth more than $500,000 through the national Payroll Protection Plan. Other cost-saving measures, Snodgrass said, also are being considered.
But sources said without tournament money from football and other revenue-producing fall sports such as soccer and volleyball, the future of the OHSAA is in serious jeopardy. Football is one of the organization’s big money makers along with boys and girls basketball.
“No football playoffs puts the OHSAA out of business,” a northeast Ohio athletic director said.
“We will fold if there are no fall sports,” another source said.
Officials from some schools have told Snodgrass they would be willing to reinstate membership fees to keep the OHSAA afloat. The executive director said streaming tournament games on the internet with advertising is another option if the contests are played in empty stadiums or limited to small crowds.
Ohio State athletic director Gene Smith said Wednesday the Buckeyes might allow 22,000 to 50,000 fans into their 100,000-seat stadium, depending on the state and national guidelines at the time.
A similar model could be adopted by Ohio high schools, but unlike major college programs they don’t have lucrative television deals to offset gate-receipt losses. Some high schools might choose not to even play in that scenario. The domino effect would be ominous. One northeast Ohio school superintendent told The Athletic football revenues pay for equipment used in all sports.
Adding to the dilemma is the fact Governor Mike DeWine announced earlier month the state plans to slash $300 million from K-12 public school funding because of the virus’s economic impact.
“My job is to right the ship,” Snodgrass said. “My job is to see us through this crisis. That’s mission No. 1 for me.”
Official basketballs from the state tournament. (Photo by Scott W. Grau / Getty Images)
The OHSAA is to high school and middle school sports what the NCAA is to college athletics. Each is loathed by some fans for how they choose to punish athletes and schools for recruiting violations and various infractions. The OHSAA is sued at least 20 to 30 times a year, a source said.
Such is life for the sheriffs of the sports world.
But many athletic directors, coaches and school officials cannot imagine a landscape without the OHSAA. And it’s not just about bringing rule breakers to justice.
State officials at the OHSAA and its six satellite districts provide structure and finance the postseason tournaments. There are:
• Limited tournament entry fees for schools.
• Bonuses returned to schools for ticket sales in some sports.
• Reimbursements to schools of selected regional and state tournaments. The OHSAA returned more than $2.6 million to member schools last school year.
What organizations or state coaches associations could afford to book venues, sell tickets, pay officials and set up accommodations for media and sponsors?
• In absence of order, chaos develops,” Snodgrass said. “Organizational structure is a necessary evil to create rules and regulations that affect everyone. They also are for the betterment of everyone.”
The OHSAA’s budget is comprised of three main sources of revenue: 78 percent from tournament ticket sales, 11 percent from annual officiating permit renewals and 11 percent from corporate sponsorships.
Nobody budgets for a pandemic, but it’s fair to wonder why the OHSAA is so ill-prepared to face a short-term crisis.
Multiple sources attribute it to bad long-term planning and not having the vision to squirrel away money to endure economic downturns. Snodgrass shoulders some blame, but he’s been the face of the organization for just two years.
“For about 90 years, the OHSAA was printing money,” one source said.
Another source added it was spending money “like a drunken sailor” throughout much of the last two decades.
In 2012, the OHSAA purchased a second office building next to its headquarters in suburban Columbus at the cost of $900,000. While the sale price was reasonable, sources said, the new building sat unoccupied for six years.
Snodgrass confirmed the association might need to sell it to raise money.
The OHSAA board of directors had been working on two-year terms. Critics say that’s not long enough to gain a full understanding of how to operate the business. The association recently increased the term to three years.
As the association continued to increase spending, it was dealt an unexpected blow. During the past two decades, enrollment in members schools have dropped. More importantly, attendance at postseason tournament games began to decline sharply. Ticket sales are the lifeblood of the OHSAA.
Not since LeBron James won his third and final basketball title with Akron St. Vincent-St. Mary in 2003 has the OHSAA enjoyed a sellout at a state football (Canton/Massillon) or state basketball events (Columbus).
Various reasons, including the decision to televise state football and boys and girls basketball games, have been offered for plummeting attendance figures.
“Overall, the drop-off has been significant over the last 12 years,” Snodgrass said.
The shortfall has invited scrutiny to even small details. One item in the northeast Ohio district meeting minutes last month raised suspicions.
According to the report:
The state board has applied for a federal grant . . . in hopes of using this one-time funding to close out and pay off any outstanding pension debts and costs associated with reducing staff and/or transitioning staffing levels and job responsibilities.
Some wonder if using national stimulus money from the Payroll Protection Plan for such means is permissible.
Snodgrass said he wasn’t part of that teleconference — it’s run by a board of directors — and would need to get clarification.
In the meantime, the OHSAA and its member schools must hope the impact of the virus abates and limits on large gatherings are relaxed. There’s also concern about a second COVID-19 wave hitting the state. What happens if fall sports do resume only to have them suspended before tournament time?
“There are a lot of people nervous right now,” one athletic director said about the state of the OHSAA. “There are a lot of doomsday scenarios being put out there.”
OBIE-WON-PIEROGI
Well-known member
So do the 1-4 teams then get a home game week 12? Or does it still go to a neutral site after week 11?
Bruce Monnin
Well-known member
Weeks 1 and 2 of the playoffs are both at home field sites.
Thavoice
Well-known member
Eh. The more the better, who does it hurt?
1999: Doubling of teams from 4 to 8 making the playoffs. Think the kids felt it was any less of any accomplishment to make the playoffs?
1980: D4 and D5 added. Think those state champions, and all the extra teams who make the playoffs felt any less of an accomplishment?
1994: D6 added. See comments above.
2013: D7 added. See comments above.
1972: Started the playoffs. All of a sudden it opened the floodgates for a lot of teams. Think teams, other than Massillon, were unhappy that the playoffs were started and made the state title any less of an accomplishment (this last one was said in jest to rile up the paper champions)
I have a couple of titles under my belt. In my HS career divisions were added. The title won the season when there were LESS divisions does not feel any less or watered down compared to the one when they added another division.
The whole "watering down" argument is old, crusty and overplayed.
Thavoice
Well-known member
Yep.
So double the amount of boosters, band boosters, and all the other groups at the schools to be able to make some extra money for their groups with this addition, and more schools being able to participate in the playoffs AND the OHSAA making a little bit of more money.
Win.
Win.
Win.
But oh, a dreaded bye week. Oh know. Some are already making excuses for any 1-4 seed who loses after their bye. Oh, the humanity. I dont know, are they buying into the narrative that some NFL teams deal with coming off a bye in the playoffs and losing their first game as they look rusty? Often times in those cases those teams rested guys in week 17 so they essentially had 2 weeks off of competition, and the line between the have and have nots is much thinner than in HS.
If having a bye week is a main argument for some AGAINST adding 4 teams then, well, turn the page man, that just does not pass muster.
psycho_dad
Well-known member
Accomplishments...Winning your conference/league....Regional champ.....State Champ....
Sports like track and field and Cross Country, It doesn't matter how many start at the District, it's the same number of weeks. They just cut down more at the District level. For a team to win a state championship in cross country, they will at the very minimum beat 19 teams at the state meet. They will also have had to beat head to head at least 40 other teams at the District and Regional meets. No less an accomplishment then to be picked by a computer to start at the District level.
Purple Hayes
Well-known member
Thavoice
Well-known member
Again, to whom? You think the players in 2021 who make the playoffs are going to feel any less proud of making it?
Nope.
Dilutes quality? Possibly and probably. BUT, i guarantee you will see some 9-12 seeds winning games. There is no doubt that will happen. So there may be some week 11 games that get out of hand (as they do now) but week 12 it may mean there are some better games because when some 9-12 teams win in week 11 that means they are a better team, and should make for a better week 12 matchup....
So when that 9 and 10 seed beat the 7 and 8 that could lead to a better week 12 game....
Not at all the same. Track and XC are individual sports that can be scored as a team. At a meet for either, adding an extra team or even 4 is really not a difficult task. For football it requires the addition of an extra week to the season.
Massillon#82
Well-known member
It will make the regular season all but irrelevant. About half of the four new teams that will make it from each region will be 5-5 or worse. This is all about the “every kid gets a participation ribbon” generation. It is absolutely so the Ohsaa can make more money, as stated in the article above.
So you have a team that goes 3-7, 4-6 and 4-6 over a 3 year period, all 3 years they make the playoffs and that’s something to be proud of ???
It does diminish the accomplishment of getting in the playoffs.
Positive is it gives those team an extra week of practice and a game they would not have otherwise.
More football games is good.
Agreed #82. Which in turns make scheduling more difficult, not less. Which was one Ohio football's biggest problems imo. What little incentive there already is to schedule up, pretty much evaporates.
That said the teams that do schedule quality will continue to, because of their talent, depth, and/or nature. So the new format will benefit that small minority. WW comes immediately to mind. And of course some private powers.
For Massillon it will hurt more than help. Scheduling difficulties (problem) vs. qualifying (no problem).
That said the teams that do schedule quality will continue to, because of their talent, depth, and/or nature. So the new format will benefit that small minority. WW comes immediately to mind. And of course some private powers.
For Massillon it will hurt more than help. Scheduling difficulties (problem) vs. qualifying (no problem).
*67
Well-known member
I think the video of what you're talking about is in this story.
OHSAA Expanding Football Playoffs in 2021 - 419Sports.com
The Ohio High School Athletic Association announced Wednesday an expansion of the high school football playoffs, beginning for the 2021 season. Currently, eight schools per region make the playoffs in each of the state's seven division. Starting in 2021, that number will move to 12 schools per...
419sports.com
Interesting to hear some of the thought processes...some of the usual playoff teams are into it because it could make scheduling easier.
Thavoice
Well-known member
..and a lot of 7-9 win teams who will make it..........So.........
Thavoice
Well-known member
Didnt click on it, but it may be. It was on The Fan - Lima show on a Friday when I was driving where they play a lot of the coaches interviews from the week about week 11 playoff games.I think the video of what you're talking about is in this story.
OHSAA Expanding Football Playoffs in 2021 - 419Sports.com
The Ohio High School Athletic Association announced Wednesday an expansion of the high school football playoffs, beginning for the 2021 season. Currently, eight schools per region make the playoffs in each of the state's seven division. Starting in 2021, that number will move to 12 schools per...419sports.com
Interesting to hear some of the thought processes...some of the usual playoff teams are into it because it could make scheduling easier.
MentorGrad2002
Well-known member
I'd think it would do the opposite. Teams could afford to take a loss while testing themselves if the top 12 make it instead of the top 8