I would wholeheartedly agree if staying home impacted even one of the variables, but it doesn’t. We won’t have a vaccine. We won’t have an effective treatment. When this started “Flatten the Curve” was the mantra stated over and over. Did it mean those most at risk would not pay a terrible price? No. It meant that we would try to slow the spread more evenly so that people wouldn’t die because there were no healthcare resources. Big difference in outcomes. From what I have seen, resources in New York were battered and provided heroic care, but I did not see any reports where there were widespread people being turned away. If I’m mistaken, then I withdraw my comments. So as I sit and watch our economy tank, our best and brightest sitting at home, and a possible long turn downturn that will impact my kids into adulthood, is it wrong to question our leaders to pull their heads out of their rear and make a tough decision? Again, I reiterate the variables will not change in June or July, we will have a continual decline and bump as restrictions are placed and eased. It’s a terrible situation.
No High School Football 2020
- Thread starter bengals wrestling
- Start date
Sorry, I mistook your comment. One thing that bothers me, why is there not more outrage towards the way China and the WHO handled the data at the outset? I get it, the president is a divisive figure and people are going to love him or hate him no matter what. And people are going to always question the opposite party. But countries have to be honest when things like this pandemic start. And the WHO, averting a pandemic is their main reason for existence. Leaders of both parties failed to understand and give the seriousness to this that it deserved. That is documented in direct quotes and actions.
Yappi
Go Buckeyes
Interesting. When we look back at this, will we see anything that the WHO did in response to this pandemic that helped any countries?
Harrycrane
Well-known member
Good post . I do believe a rigorous testing tracing and isolating the infected will in the long run get us back to normal as we would know who has it and the unknown would be less part of the equation . Unfortunately some don’t really seem to want wide spread testing and tracing ( obvious ) but seem to be forced into it? We’ve wasted enough time already .
Of course some agree that testing is unimportant even though the vast majority of scientists and doctors say is necessary in order to be closer to get back to a more normal life,
Yes this is fluid , A lot can happen in the next 3-4 months . Let’s hope that we unleash all
Of our power to get closer to getting a better handle in this pre- vaccine time
Of course some agree that testing is unimportant even though the vast majority of scientists and doctors say is necessary in order to be closer to get back to a more normal life,
Yes this is fluid , A lot can happen in the next 3-4 months . Let’s hope that we unleash all
Of our power to get closer to getting a better handle in this pre- vaccine time
Harrycrane
Well-known member
I wasn’t being self righteous that was true , but I was being a bit snarky and sarcastic because more evidence comes out that Trump knew very well what was going on but played dumb and downplayed to save the stock market among other reasons . Yes China and the WHO are not clean by any means and share blame but as far as our country’s response? You are a smart serous poster , thanks for your clarity and information
Lancer_Reups
Active member
OK YOU KNOW WHAT I AM DONE WITH THIS DOOM AND GLOOM IM OUT
Thank you. I respect everyone’s thoughts on this. Nobody is ever wrong in their opinion because it is born from their perspective and life experiences. It helps to have open smart dialogue on such a serious situation.
BIG ED
Well-known member
Interesting that on Dan Dakich’s show today, Purdue’s President Mitch Daniels, was interviewed and seemed optimistic about fall sports this year, even opening up the campus, but said they are working on every scenario. He also said a dropped dead date to make a decision on fall sports is at least 2 months away. Another thing was brought up, that a lot more folks have been exposed to the virus than previously thought, which is a good thing.
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BASESWIMPARENT
Well-known member
Simply yes, the idea is going to be is the long term cost worth a percentage of deaths. and if the workers feel like they are vulnerable then they need to stay home. The option is always to stay home because there is no more money. We are running out of money, The economy needs to come back and come back quick. Gatherings will happen and questions will be asked. Things will have to look like Italy before we shut down again.
Harrycrane
Well-known member
I have heard a few colleges including my daughters have had the Presidents email the students expressing some optimism that school will be open in the fall ? For what’s that’s worth
I
I’m sure they have and are doing things to help. But they did miss poorly on their surveillance and guidance at the outset. Whether it was neglect, organizational, or they were complicit needs to be determined. But I feel it’s really bad optics for their head guy to be engaging publicly with their largest contributor.
BASESWIMPARENT
Well-known member
Not to be jerk, but again the vaccine is not for everybody, only the vulnerable. The healthy are alright. It is not meant for nor do really want it for everybody. Also, from watching the CNN report a lot of the prelim work for the emergency vaccine has been done over the last 5 to 7 years. This sharp young doctor explained it and the CNN doctor was impressed by her explanation. Stage 1 trials right now and stage 2 and 3 simultaneously later this Spring/Summer. Saw some therapeutics starting to be used also.
I’m not sure I would put a whole lot of faith into a CNN piece. Or a Fox piece for that matter. The virus in its current form didn’t exist in humans 5-7 years ago. Related viruses such as MERS and SARS did, but no commercially available vaccine ever was made available. Heck, the common cold is a related virus, how are they doing on a vaccine for that? I’ll look back for a link to a scientific article that went fairly in depth on the leading two candidates. Had to deal with utilizing RNA, can’t remember the scientific specifics right now. The thing that stuck with me out of the article though was that this technique using RNA has been around about thirty years and has shown great promise at the outset for vaccine development, but no candidates have ever made it through a full clinical trial. They either turned out to be not effective or they caused major side effects.
brianwr112
Well-known member
We don't have a vaccine or way to mass test. It's become apparent some don't understand how this thing is spreading. I'll give you an example.
Danny feels just fine so he goes to school. We'll say 3rd grade. Danny has COVID-19 though just not symptoms. Now Danny gives it to his whole table at lunch and the people he sits next to in class. Just for argument we'll say the teacher get's it too. Now all those kids and adults go home and spread it to their families. Nobody has a clue until Uncle Tommy's in the hospital. That's why we aren't going anywhere.
Danny feels just fine so he goes to school. We'll say 3rd grade. Danny has COVID-19 though just not symptoms. Now Danny gives it to his whole table at lunch and the people he sits next to in class. Just for argument we'll say the teacher get's it too. Now all those kids and adults go home and spread it to their families. Nobody has a clue until Uncle Tommy's in the hospital. That's why we aren't going anywhere.
That’s a pretty patronizing post. Most people on here understand the situation and how it spreads. Most people are willing to do their part for a time to help the healthcare workers and limited the spread. But at some point, it is not ignorant or wrong to question things. There is no cohesive plan from local, state, or federal government on the criteria for moving forward. Shelter in place is not a plan. The contagion rate, death rate, and population exposed is not known. The data is garbage. So as someone said before, let’s quit having these stupid daily press conferences that do nothing but regurgitate bad data, and get the damn focus on developing widespread testing so we know what we are dealing with and can come up with a good exit plan. Until the, we are only dealing with “opinions”.
this is really good!
Not to beat a dead horse, but the initial moves toward shelter in place were to mitigate spread and ensure there would be adequate space in hospitals and ICU. Hence the conversation around adding hospital capacity, creating satellite hospitals, and the like -- that conversation seems to have gone to the wayside.
It seems that as we've moved deeper in the shelter in place (or whatever you wish to call it), the goalpost has moved to eliminating the disease. From what I've read, that seems to be be pretty unrealistic until there is a vaccine in place or massive antibody testing.
If the government wants to operate our present bubble for another six, 12, or 18 months ... then there are going to be even more economic problems then there are now. I hate to sound crass, but I don't care, at some point we may have to just live with this virus being around and "manage" it so society has some semblance of functioning. I don't want to speculate as to when that is, but I'm thinking it's June/July.
It seems that as we've moved deeper in the shelter in place (or whatever you wish to call it), the goalpost has moved to eliminating the disease. From what I've read, that seems to be be pretty unrealistic until there is a vaccine in place or massive antibody testing.
If the government wants to operate our present bubble for another six, 12, or 18 months ... then there are going to be even more economic problems then there are now. I hate to sound crass, but I don't care, at some point we may have to just live with this virus being around and "manage" it so society has some semblance of functioning. I don't want to speculate as to when that is, but I'm thinking it's June/July.
you’ll stay at home as long as the governor tells you too. And you’ll complain on yappi and act like you know what’s going on. But really you have no clue and will do what you’re told.
Like the rest of us.
Harrycrane
Well-known member
Whose complaining ! I’ve called for discipline and not getting out en masse too quickly . Financially I’m fortunate , but as much as I realize the best thing to do is keep up what we’ve been doing , many need to get back to work as soon as possible and businesses need this to happen . We are all just trying to do the best we can and opinions are just that .
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I realize this is meant to be sarcastic, but I don’t see that happening much past May 1st. My family has tried to be really good about following the orders, but we had to go out to get supplies on Saturday. With the nice weather, every store was packed. You could see people at homes having campfires and get togethers. Protests are spreading throughout the country and gaining steam. Without a solid plan with solid dates, people will start disregarding. It’s human nature.
Personally I’m hopeful that human nature wins.
There’s has been no plan. Flattening then curve has become loss of freedom until a vaccine is found. Schools becoming shells of what they were intended, elimination of sports because of the inherent danger of spreading among people surging six feet.
the scary thing is that the people making these decisions without a plan-moving the goal posts-are being celebrated. “Wear your cape”. Sing a song and wine with DeWine.
this celebrity status of the governor and the good doctor has led to more and more trust in their decision making or lack there of.
doubtme
Go outside nerd.
I had a friend refer to the good doctor as Dr. Amy Over reActon
gave me a good chuckle.
I just feel like people are paralyzed by fear right now. Economy will be in ruins for a while, and it makes me nervous for the future.
Like someone said, its going to take enormous bipartisan work to get everyone pulling in the same direction to get us in position to stabilize everything.
I just don't see it happening... I think our divide politically is too great.
Mackinbiner
Well-known member
Here's an interesting article comparing COVID-19 to other killers.
www.nationalreview.com
Coronavirus Kills More Americans in One Month Than the Flu Kills in One Year | National Review
Having a proper understanding of the virus’s past and present danger matters.
www.nationalreview.com
My biggest problem with her is how everyone places her as an all knowing “expert”. She may be an incredible doctor. Have a full grasp of the virus, it’s transmission, etc. But the data she presents is the most JV league garbage I have ever seen. That needs to be fixed.
BASESWIMPARENT
Well-known member
I have read through this entire thread and I think it is fascinating. All of you have really brought up some fantastic points. But, I want to throw my two cents in what I think went wrong (and what went right) with the management of this crisis and I will sum it up in one word: communication. Not that there wasn't enough communication just a lot of communication without context. When I was Marine in the 90's the "Old Breed" would complain that our new Marines wanted to know "why"? They wanted to know why so that their effort was justified in their minds. In all but rare occurrences (mostly in immediate combat situations), knowing the "why" has unforeseeable positive consequences. Better ideas are developed when everyone knows the why. The American people need to know the WHY and can't be "because I am the duty expert and I smarter than you with regard to this situation." Nobody in national or state government gave us the why and how they got to those conclusions. Instead, in Ohio, we got statements from Dr. Acton such as "100k Ohioans already have the virus and the morbidity rate is 3% or 4%. Nationally, we had statements that 2M (no mitigation), 100K (with mitigation) dead citizens due to this pandemic. Until recently, Dr. Acton's graph showed that with mitigation we could expect 6k to 8k new cases every day. Then it was reduced to 1.5k new cases every day. However, there was not testing plan in place to prove those numbers. There was no way she was going to able to show that number of confirmed or even projected cases with the way she was testing. Furthermore, there was no official explanation as to where we got these projections nor did there seem to be a concerted effort to correct the model quickly and make the case to the general populace to JUSTIFY the sacrifice that we were/ are being asked to make. Most people will do what the leaders ask in the short run if it brought about as an emergency. But further sacrifice will have to be proved and quite frankly it has not been proved in America and for sure not in Ohio. There is nothing wrong with breaking out the original model and saying "this is why". There is nothing wrong with coming back and saying the data has forced us to rebuild our model and this is what we think will happen. There is nothing wrong with saying we are limited in our testing so this is the data points (hospital admissions and deaths) is what we are looking at to make our decisions There is nothing wrong with saying in the short run: "I don't know but this is what I think and why." But what we cannot have is implied condescension, no admittance that we were wrong and no perspective change based on the little data that we have. In short, our state and federal government have a credibility issue with regard to this pandemic. Think about that: our government has on purpose brought our economy to its knees and now has a credibility issue. Now we are making decisions based on economic necessity and maybe not due to the health considerations and that is not even being admitted too. Let's hope moving forward, out government gives its citizens more credit, explains the why, admits when it was wrong when it is wrong and asks us to do things that can be proven by the data. Right now, a lot of us don't know who to believe or what data is accurate or even what the data means? For example, right now, with the increase in the number of confirmed cases and no context as to why would any of you open up the economy or would you open up the economy assuming the stay at home order has not worked?
The Dock
Persona Non Grata
Not having self-control isn't a justification for defying public health directives, and what's good for your community's health. Being bored isn't an excuse to go against the grain. Everyone's bored, everyone's feeling some tangible effects to their daily livelihood as a result of this situation. I get to work from home 95% of the time, but the other 5% of the time I'm (to an extent) working "in the trenches. " I'm in places that are generally not sanitary, with interactions that pose inherent risk of contracting the novel coronavirus. Even though I take all precautions I'm informed of that would lessen the likelihood that the virus could enter my system, I can't let my vigilance down. No one can afford to. I have no personal reason to believe I'm at a particularly high risk of mortality from COVID-19, but viruses don't care if I neglect conventional wisdom and let my guard down: infections are infections, potential complications are complications if they occur and death is death if it happens. The other side of the coin is us citizens have a responsibility to act in the interest of our neighbors' health, regardless of the varying degrees to which we may have been exposed. My birthday is this Friday, and despite invites I'm staying home - it would be pretty irresponsible if I chose to visit my pal's house and crack Heinekens' with them and their parents, and in the process unknowingly infect them with a virus that I don't know if I have. I've made it a point to self-isolate and follow stay-at-home directive that was put in place circa St. Patrick's Day because that has been the request we're given by the professionals who are working on the best advice and epidemiology they're afforded on a contagion we've never seen before.
Excellent post. The classic definition of leadership. Needed now more than ever when you have a population that is divided over a real fear of death and a real fear of economic ruin.
Agree, I’m not saying in my post whether their actions are right or wrong. You can see in my posts I am very skeptical of the shelter in place and I have a fear of the consequences. But I follow it. I’m an essential employee, had the fortune of being able to work, and have little fear of catching the virus. But we are home every night and weekend. There were many unknowns and I felt it was my duty to follow the orders to help do my part to get a handle on this. Others don’t feel that way. And I’m not sure I do past May 1st. And that thought cannot be disregarded as ignorant or crackpot. Many have done their part as citizens as they watch their bank accounts dwindle and their kids memories lost. The government at every level also has a responsibility, and that is communication, honesty, action, and leadership. Not seeing it. And in that void, people will begin to disregard.
The Dock
Persona Non Grata
And I don't disagree with this post.
I do however think most of the attitudes people have on the economic (and by relation, personal finance) aftershocks are misguided. Mad at the governor because your business is facing closure after not being deemed essential? OK, the alternative was "do nothing" and let the virus go unchecked as a sweeping contagion that would've killed Ohioans *en masse*, undoubtedly including some customers of yours, screw up the supply chain in some fashion (what's happening in meat-packing plants in the Great Plains would've happened at your fabricating plants, food production plants etc not only in Ohio but elsewhere), cause costs to go up because the supplier either can't ship as much or has to throw copious OT and hazard pay at the problem since everyone is sick. Any chain of events interlinked with a sick workforce that's not keeping your costs optimized to achieve maximum profit is an economic loss. The capitalism ball game played by the mom-and-pop losing out right now is single 'A' minor league baseball: it's low margin, low volume industry with a high susceptibility to failure with enough profit to possibly live comfortably but nothing to get rich by. What happens to most 'A' league baseball players? They fall out of the game. It happens, pandemic or not. The capitalism ball game played by your big industries, big businesses, your Fortune 500's, your airlines and sports industries by contrast is Major League Baseball. Plenty of people at top have to really f--- up big time to lose money and go defunct in a normal time, but in a time of pandemic they largely would be bulletproof in profitability thanks to assets, holdings in private equity - only difference is they aren't achieving the most profitable point for the stakeholders right now. And that's bad. That's why big business is causing the raucous to reopen the economy, 'cause they're only looking after themselves. If they cared about the small business owners and employees of the mom-and-pop's that were really hurting right now, then we'd be talking about how we can get the people who stand the most to lose at the end of the day not just "back in business" but thriving. Instead, right now it's just the wool pulled over our eyes convincing us that "death be damned, there's crap to be bought." Where's the bailout for your local small business?
The big fishes in the economy don't care about the little fishes. They don't have a reason to, because any sense of compromise or reform that would reshape the current capitalist structures in our economy just to give the small business owners an inch would mean big business lost an iota on the bottom line of the quarterly earnings report. And we can't have that, now can we?
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