bleacherbum57
Active member
Difference in enrollment between smallest and largest schools in each division:
IV - 107
III - 80
II - 130
I - 1026
Is there a fairer way?
IV - 107
III - 80
II - 130
I - 1026
Is there a fairer way?
Divisional Breakdown - Enrollments
- Thread starter bleacherbum57
- Start date
Mr. Slippery
Well-known member
The enrollment disparity is brutal, but girls hoops is staring a minimum of 2 bigger problems in the face right now, IMHO:
1) Some schools are failing to field a varsity team these days. Looking at the NEDAB district tournament assignment list right now, and I see the following teams that withdrew from the tournament:
DI - Akron Garfield (WD 1-23), Akron North (WD 1-23), Cleveland John Adams (WD 1-20)
DII - Akron East (WD 1-23), Cleveland Glenville (WD 12-6)
DIII - Cleveland Collinwood (WD 1-20)
DIV - Lake Center Christian (WD 11-9), Jackson-Milton (WD 11-7), Middlefield Cardinal (WD 11-11), Our Lady of the Elms (WD 1-12)
The 3 DIV teams that withdrew back in November couldn't field teams this year. The timing of some of the other tournament withdrawals suggests to me that there are eligibility issues in play either due to grades or due to transfers who have to sit the 2nd half of the season plus the tournament. Participation numbers have been trending in this direction for awhile, but it's going to be difficult for some programs to get up and running again if they experience a lapse in competition.
2) The disparity in talent between the various tiers of teams which yields some ridiculously lopsided scores. These scores aren't only the product of games between state title contending teams and the very worst teams. I've witnessed some 40+ point beatings in games between sub-.500 teams that are going nowhere in the tournament vs. the very worst teams.
1) Some schools are failing to field a varsity team these days. Looking at the NEDAB district tournament assignment list right now, and I see the following teams that withdrew from the tournament:
DI - Akron Garfield (WD 1-23), Akron North (WD 1-23), Cleveland John Adams (WD 1-20)
DII - Akron East (WD 1-23), Cleveland Glenville (WD 12-6)
DIII - Cleveland Collinwood (WD 1-20)
DIV - Lake Center Christian (WD 11-9), Jackson-Milton (WD 11-7), Middlefield Cardinal (WD 11-11), Our Lady of the Elms (WD 1-12)
The 3 DIV teams that withdrew back in November couldn't field teams this year. The timing of some of the other tournament withdrawals suggests to me that there are eligibility issues in play either due to grades or due to transfers who have to sit the 2nd half of the season plus the tournament. Participation numbers have been trending in this direction for awhile, but it's going to be difficult for some programs to get up and running again if they experience a lapse in competition.
2) The disparity in talent between the various tiers of teams which yields some ridiculously lopsided scores. These scores aren't only the product of games between state title contending teams and the very worst teams. I've witnessed some 40+ point beatings in games between sub-.500 teams that are going nowhere in the tournament vs. the very worst teams.
This is what sticks out to me. Our school has been blessed the last 10 or so years with exceptional talent (Not sure how many regional final appearances we've had, but I feel like it's been every year in the last 10). The sectional draw is terribly bad for them. This year, only 1 team has a winning record, and 2 of them are either 1-xxx or 0-xxx. It makes for a very bleh tournament run until district finals. And even that is hit or miss.
CCHS93
Well-known member
There is a lack of depth in girls basketball. There are not enough good players to around and they tend to congregate at certain programs. I can understand why Garfield, North, John Adams, and some of the others don't want to be in the state tournament. If you are getting crushed each week, the best thing to do is end the misery.
Unfortunately - it doesn't look like this trend is going to change anytime soon for girls basketball. Numbers are down across the board and JV AND JH seasons are being cancelled. Realistically - I think it would be smart for the OHSAA to consider this when realigning the divisions next year. Put a few more schools into DIV - knowing that there are undoubtedly going to be some schools that cancel their season and withdraw from the tournament.
Mr. Slippery
Well-known member
I am not sure how OHSAA does it for basketball, but in the sports with which I am most familiar, the divisional breakdowns are based on how many teams actually existed in the tournament (i.e. a school had to have at least 9 different athletes compete at the district level in track and field to be counted as a "team," and a school needed to have 5 runners cross the finish line at the district cross country meet to be counted as "team.") Schools that did not have "teams" still get assigned to the proper division based on their enrollment but were not included when determining what the divisional breakdowns should be for the following cycle.
For girls hoops, does the OHSAA go by how many schools started the season with a team or by how many schools competed in the tournament? if the latter, a few larger schools would theoretically be pulled down to keep the number of teams in each division relatively balanced. However, the enrollment disparity is always going to be an issue at both ends of the enrollment list.
Mr. Slippery
Well-known member
That's especially crazy given that it's 2 DI schools (granted, one is over 2x the size of the other).
It typically goes by schools that offer girls basketball. I think it’s safe to say though that in D4 it’s always going to be less at the end than the beginning - as these are the schools being hit the hardest with roster issues. There are entire leagues this year with no JV and JH teams. What the state and basketball community doesn’t want is a 9-10 team District tournament in D4 when D1-D3 have 12-14 team Districts.
Why do you care so much?
Active member
Good thread
Maplewood dropped out of the D4 tournament after going on their bracket. This happened last year with Richmond Heights, as well. 2 things need to happen from this - as far as the NEDAB and the OHSAA are concerned:
1. Teams that place themselves on a bracket and drop out without playing the game - need to be fined and banned from the post-season the following year. This totally messes up brackets and hurts teams - as some of them can have over a week off without a game, due to a "no-contest" being issued. Schools have an option to drop out before the tournament - they need to do that if they are going to.
2. The OHSAA needs to increase the number of teams in D4 - as this is now 5 or 6 schools who have dropped out of the D4 tournament for girls basketball alone. That is almost 15% of teams who could play - I would say that is a big number.
1. Teams that place themselves on a bracket and drop out without playing the game - need to be fined and banned from the post-season the following year. This totally messes up brackets and hurts teams - as some of them can have over a week off without a game, due to a "no-contest" being issued. Schools have an option to drop out before the tournament - they need to do that if they are going to.
2. The OHSAA needs to increase the number of teams in D4 - as this is now 5 or 6 schools who have dropped out of the D4 tournament for girls basketball alone. That is almost 15% of teams who could play - I would say that is a big number.
The Dock
Persona Non Grata
6/120 is 5%, not 15.
It’s not a D4 specific problem. What’s actually the main bugaboo statewide on this issue is the large-urban districts having teams fall out left and right. In the Central District, there are two Columbus City League teams that withdrew in D1 — Briggs, and Independence. And although not Columbus City League, KIPP Columbus withdrew in D2.
One that is also (somewhat) a shocker is Westland (676 girls) withdrawing in D1.
Mr. Slippery
Well-known member
With regards to D4 in the NE District, there were 42 teams assigned to the 3 district brackets prior to the beginning of the season. 4 of them didn't field teams/withdrew, and Maplewood forfeited just days before they were scheduled to play to make 5 teams out of 42 that didn't play in the NE D4 tournament. That's 12% of the field. I have not examined the D4 brackets outside the NE to see if any wider trend exists.
In SWO, DI Fairborn was seeded 19th and forfeited to #1 seed Bellbrook on Wednesday night.
I am talking about the 3 NE Districts - not statewide - but thanks for correcting my math incorrectly.
Teams that go on a bracket and then forfeit need to be penalized in the future.
The Dock
Persona Non Grata
If/when OHSAA increases the number of teams in a given division (e.g. D4), it doesn’t mean all of the ones added in will all happen to be in the NE District — or that there will be enough to offset the withdrawals/not fielded teams for the given district.
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Mr. Slippery
Well-known member
I'm OK with fining them for this year, but I don't think banning them from tournament play the following year is the way to go. We ultimately want these programs to improve their viability. Some type of penalty is assessed to any team that withdraws after Monday of the week that the bracket is drawn (which is why a handful of Akron and Cleveland teams withdrew that very Monday), but I don't know what the traditional penalty is.
Agreed - but my point (and the point of many NE basketball people that I have spoken with) is that it is something that needs to be considered moving forward. This is a trend that is going to continue. If you look at the cuts this year - there were a number of NE teams that could have went from 1 to 2, 2 to 3 and 3 to 4 pretty easily.
It's tough. You work all year as a team to earn a seed (some teams and programs work multiple years for a one-year tourney run opportunity). You put yourselves on a bracket. Then all of a sudden you get the call that the team you were supposed to play - who chose to play in the tournament when they had an option not to - cancelled the game.
That is really tough to stomach if you are that other school that was counting on that game. It's messed up.
Mr. Slippery
Well-known member
It's tough on both teams. The team that forfeits is choosing to end its season without even taking the court. Maybe I'm in the minority, but it's not a decision I would make lightly.
Mr. Slippery
Well-known member
Some digging among the OHSAA's various published documents yields:
6.4) Schools that fail to participate in a tournament (individual or team) after indicating that they will enter a tournament may be ineligible to participate in that particular sport’s OHSAA-sponsored tournament the following year. Additional penalties may be assessed and may include: 1.) a monetary fine issued by the OHSAA Office; 2.) payment of officials’ fees for the missed contests; 3.) payment of the opponent’s travel expenses for the missed contests, and 4.) additional penalties as deemed appropriate by the Executive Director in collaboration with the respective District Athletic Board. See General Sports Regulation 16.4 for additional information on “Failure to Appear.” The penalties rendered by the OHSAA Office may be appealed.
6.5) Tournament fines and penalties shall be assessed by the OHSAA Office. District Athletic Boards do not have authority to determine or set fines. All fines shall be uniform across all sports of the OHSAA.
6.5.1) Fines and penalties are adopted and designed to: 1.) mitigate unnecessary costs in conducting a tournament when a school team does not attend according to the schedule adopted by the Executive Director, and 2.) provide a financial disincentive from a school making a decision to not participate in the OHSAA tournament.
6.5.2) All violations of General Sports Regulation 6 for a sectional or district tournament shall be communicated to the OHSAA Office. The OHSAA Office and the District Athletic Board shall coordinate the entry and withdrawal of teams and individuals from the tournament.
6.5.3) The Executive Director’s office shall prepare and invoice the school being issued the monetary penalty.
6.5.4) All fines for activities in General Sports Regulation 6 may be waived by the OHSAA Office only for extraordinary circumstances. Extraordinary circumstances are defined as unusual in nature and infrequent in occurrence.
ISSUE - PENALTY
Late entry petition to participate in tournament - $50
Withdraw petition submitted after deadline to withdraw - $50
Failure to submit seeding information when prescribed by OHSAA regulation - $50
Failure for coach, administrator or authorized team representative to attend the tournament draw - $50
Failure to pay specific sport fees required for tournament participation by the deadline (e.g., golf greens fees, bowling linage fees or wrestling weight management fees). - Tournament ineligibility until fees are paid
Failure to show up for a scheduled tournament contest - $150, plus • cost of officials scheduled to officiate; plus, • cost of any site expenses incurred by the OHSAA; plus, • team expenses incurred by the opposing team, except for presale ticket revenue.
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