2020 Competitive Balance In Ohio High School Football

Can you really go into a parochial school without penalty if you are a HS School Coach? I thought Coach Tyrrell going into St. Hillary caused his suspension a couple years ago? Or was the cause of the infraction as I state it incorrect?

Also, what is the difference between a public school with open enrollment and a private school accepting transfers? I see people bash Massillon for taking transfers but if open enrollment what are they doing wrong? That stadium, facility, history, opportunities a school of that size academically could potentially offer, etc. Don't let my use of Massillon cloud the argument. Insert any public school with Massillon facilities. I would like to know what people think is different between open enrollment publics and private schools.

I didn't hear anyone feeling sorry for Hoban when they were a doormat. In Hoban's case, Coach T came in, got some luck with a great CYO group on the 2015 team (2 starters on defense were not CYO kids), I think one transfer starter as a Junior on offense, engaged the alumni to invest in a world class weight room, changed the culture and surrounded himself with good coaches. The 2015 class kept I believe 15 of 22-23 freshmen football players playing all 4 years. That's big. Success breeds success. after the second title I don't think Hoban had to try hard to get kids to come to Hoban. Also as I parent that had kids play, I am still stunned at how many college coaches, all divisions, have been going through that school since Coach T arrived.
 
one more comment....should Ohio go back to AAA, AA, and A with competitive balance. Of course the border line enrollment schools and the very small schools might complain, but you would get the evil empires of private schools in AAA. I also like the idea of an open division.
 
duckdodgers said:
Can you really go into a parochial school without penalty if you are a HS School Coach? I thought Coach Tyrrell going into St. Hillary caused his suspension a couple years ago? Or was the cause of the infraction as I state it incorrect?

Also, what is the difference between a public school with open enrollment and a private school accepting transfers? I see people bash Massillon for taking transfers but if open enrollment what are they doing wrong? That stadium, facility, history, opportunities a school of that size academically could potentially offer, etc. Don't let my use of Massillon cloud the argument. Insert any public school with Massillon facilities. I would like to know what people think is different between open enrollment publics and private schools.

I didn't hear anyone feeling sorry for Hoban when they were a doormat. In Hoban's case, Coach T came in, got some luck with a great CYO group on the 2015 team (2 starters on defense were not CYO kids), I think one transfer starter as a Junior on offense, engaged the alumni to invest in a world class weight room, changed the culture and surrounded himself with good coaches. The 2015 class kept I believe 15 of 22-23 freshmen football players playing all 4 years. That's big. Success breeds success. after the second title I don't think Hoban had to try hard to get kids to come to Hoban. Also as I parent that had kids play, I am still stunned at how many college coaches, all divisions, have been going through that school since Coach T arrived.
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Everyone wants to talk about the big city schools open / parochial but this doesn't encompass the entire picture.

There are more schools in rural small town areas who don't fall into the same category. They are out in the middle of nowhere and don't get many transfers , I mean who wants to come to Cornfield, Ohio to play football? No kids coming from outside the area and a lower population = less chances of finding elite talent.

How are these schools supposed to compete with the big Open Recruiting and Parochial Schools? The answer is they can't
 
This seems like an annual tradition.

We had a little discussion on this topic over on the volleyball forum where Catholics have basically dominated the Div I & II titles for decades. While a large drawing area is a benefit to the schools winning titles other aspects were identified as just as important and I think translate to football. The tradition factor is huge and many bury their head in the sand to say this is not something that should be included when trying decided on competitive Divisions. A young athlete is more apt to gravitate to football if the school they are affiliated with is traditionally strong in the sport. Also having the $s to fund facilities and personnel is a big advantage, affluent suburban districts have a large advantage over urban and rural districts that struggle just to have enough $s for gear and a few coaches. But then again the tradition and funding narrative doesn't fit nicely into an easily quantifiable number, anyone remember the free lunch metric that the OHSAA floated a few years back? So what you have is an arbitrary enrollment multiplier that primarily affects the privates schools that are in the middle spectrum of the Divisions. This made a small group of schools happy but not all, especially those in Div I & II; the only way to get them happy will be full on separation.
 
dhsdog06 said:
In 2019, 8-2, D7 champ Marion Local would have missed the playoffs in D6/R23 (where they would have been placed.)

That's a "reward?"
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Every school (that wants to) should be in the playoffs, every year-- as is true in EVERY OTHER Ohio HS sport-- this year showed a very workable solution for getting every team into the playoffs-- and teams that opt out-- or lose early-- can choose to play exhibitions against various other schools, during that end of season period. Not making the playoffs should be eliminated as a scheduling or results issue--this is easily addressed.
 
Auggie said:
This seems like an annual tradition.

We had a little discussion on this topic over on the volleyball forum where Catholics have basically dominated the Div I & II titles for decades. While a large drawing area is a benefit to the schools winning titles other aspects were identified as just as important and I think translate to football. The tradition factor is huge and many bury their head in the sand to say this is not something that should be included when trying decided on competitive Divisions. A young athlete is more apt to gravitate to football if the school they are affiliated with is traditionally strong in the sport. Also having the $s to fund facilities and personnel is a big advantage, affluent suburban districts have a large advantage over urban and rural districts that struggle just to have enough $s for gear and a few coaches. But then again the tradition and funding narrative doesn't fit nicely into an easily quantifiable number, anyone remember the free lunch metric that the OHSAA floated a few years back? So what you have is an arbitrary enrollment multiplier that primarily affects the privates schools that are in the middle spectrum of the Divisions. This made a small group of schools happy but not all, especially those in Div I & II; the only way to get them happy will be full on separation.
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You think separation will make them happy ? DREAM ON. They will just find something else to complain about until the competition gets weak enough that their team could compete. It's all part of the WUSSIFICATION of America. Why make kids smarter when it's easier to give easier tests, why keep score in youth sports when every kid is a winner and gets a trophy. This Competitive Balance is no different. The complaining schools will go after the open enrollment schools once the privates are gone - then it will be the public schools that have great programs, then schools with better facilities, then schools with turf fields, etc - it will never stop.

These complaining people have zero problem when the innocent private schools get put into a division they cannot compete equally in - they tell them to GET BETTER. They dont realize how small some of these privates are. They are not all like X, Ed's, Iggy, etc - for every one of those schools you have a St.Thomas, JFK, Trinity, VASJ, etc. The system only works when it benefits the underperforming public schools. The system is supposed to benefit ALL student athletes - private and public. You have like size schools compete and the cards fall where they may. I have no problem with a private playing up one division - but treat open enrollment schools the same way. Making a private play multiple divisions up as a punishment is not creating balance either.
 
SeeYaSometime said:
I think you’re wrong. No parochial coach can speak to an individual kid before being contacted by him or his parent. Now said Hoban coach did go into a Summit County parochial grade school and speak to a group of students. In that case the school’s Principal was the parent of a former Hoban player and let him do it. Unseemly, yes.
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Maybe not go into the school, but they go to their practices and have even hosted practices. Coaches will say to "come watch their games this Friday night" after speaking to the kids. And not just the parochials, those 30K/year privates are also talking to the kids. From Holy Trinity to St Mary Chardon. To be fair half those kids are going private anyways, but a good number of the CYO players were public school kids too.
 
dhsdog06 said:
In 2019, 8-2, D7 champ Marion Local would have missed the playoffs in D6/R23 (where they would have been placed.)

That's a "reward?"
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if you want to go that route with it, than schedule bigger/better schools in your schedule. Last year a high school moved up from D6 to D5 and proceeded to go 10-0 and missed the playoffs.
 
43460sports said:
if you want to go that route with it, than schedule bigger/better schools in your schedule. Last year a high school moved up from D6 to D5 and proceeded to go 10-0 and missed the playoffs.
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Northwood would have gotten drilled round 1 anyway. And they weren't arbitrarily moved up by winning, that was a move that would have happened regardless.

How much better can you play than the freakin MAC? ML also played Watterson.
 
In addition to that, the 10 teams they defeated had a combined record of 34 wins and 66 losses. Seven of the teams they played were D6 or D7.
 
BRM12 said:
Its actually quite simple:
If the head football coach at Hoban, for example, comes to any parish school or athletic event in the Youngstown Diocese, which is massive in size, they are well within their rights under OHSAA laws.

The head coach from Hoban can walk into St Christine's in Youngstown or St Mary's in Massillon and recruit a kid, but if the public school coach who's district those parochial schools are located in were to try and approach a kid at the school, its a violation per the OHSAA.

Is that fairness in sports, which is what the OHSAA preaches?

Now, it also helps that the coach from Hoban gets every inch out of the laws written, and may push the envelope a tad. He is also able to enjoy the fact that almost all of the Akron Public Schools, and many around Akron are "failing districts" and can in turn, attend Hoban at NO COST to the player or family.

I will also say, that I like the open division option. Look up California's set up, its very similar.
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So the answer is to punish Hoban for the other schools failings?
 
I am also on the outside. Got no dog in the fight.
Why penalize schools who do well within the system? Parochial schools draw from larger areas as there are less of them around. It isnt about area though, but the system used in these schools. Those kids work hard, have more parental intervention growing up, and there is a punishment if the kid screws up. And those schools are like the military in as much as if one guy screws up the team runs, etc. They live team and teamwork from the top down. The parochial schools have programs where the kids go out and help others, food lines, etc, and learn community values.
Public school systems have all their kids in one pot, but each is on their own, sink or swim. The good kids still get their grades, and parents are involved, but so many kids get lost in the shuffle because of a lack of parental involvement, or even being in the kids life, or working long hours to support them, etc. The list goes on. There is also very little community involvement by public school kids.
Parochial schools are a whole different world.
 
oldguy77 said:
I am also on the outside. Got no dog in the fight.
Why penalize schools who do well within the system? Parochial schools draw from larger areas as there are less of them around. It isnt about area though, but the system used in these schools. Those kids work hard, have more parental intervention growing up, and there is a punishment if the kid screws up. And those schools are like the military in as much as if one guy screws up the team runs, etc. They live team and teamwork from the top down. The parochial schools have programs where the kids go out and help others, food lines, etc, and learn community values.
Public school systems have all their kids in one pot, but each is on their own, sink or swim. The good kids still get their grades, and parents are involved, but so many kids get lost in the shuffle because of a lack of parental involvement, or even being in the kids life, or working long hours to support them, etc. The list goes on. There is also very little community involvement by public school kids.
Parochial schools are a whole different world.
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It's not fair to make that degrading statement about ALL public schools. They're not all alike.
 
Mackinbiner said:
It's not fair to make that degrading statement about ALL public schools. They're not all alike.
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Indeed...there is a notorious public school district out there...that you may not like. But you gotta admit, the passion, and the drive by their community to put out a successful product every year...is pretty impressive. Maybe we would like to see some improvement in their academics, and their non football sports. But they are certainly pretty unique in high school football.
 
CoventryTrackXCguy said:
Indeed...there is a notorious public school district out there...that you may not like. But you gotta admit, the passion, and the drive by their community to put out a successful product every year...is pretty impressive. Maybe we would like to see some improvement in their academics, and their non football sports. But they are certainly pretty unique in high school football.
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You'll never make it as a mind reader.
 
Interesting thread. Been on both sides of this argument. With that being said if majority of the public schools are failing in Akron, now it makes sense how Hoban is getting the athletes they're getting. It has to be extremely easy providing kids & parents and in some cases single moms with a vision that their kid will be provided a top notch education as well as a chance to get developed into a potential college football player that could garner a college degree. Probably 1 of the more easier sale pitches going. CPS (Cincinnati Public Schools) is in the same boat but can you imagine if all the inner city kids & half of the cyo kids attended Lasalle. Can you imagine Corey Kiner at Lasalle? I'm WW parent by the way. After watching the Dll state championship game what did competitive balance prove. Really nothing because small cities like Akron & Toledo have surrounding cities that are smaller in population but their school system is failing as well leaving them eligible to attend a private school of choice @ no cost. Just so happens the privates are great in football.
 
DonCalipari said:
Interesting thread. Been on both sides of this argument. With that being said if majority of the public schools are failing in Akron, now it makes sense how Hoban is getting the athletes they're getting. It has to be extremely easy providing kids & parents and in some cases single moms with a vision that their kid will be provided a top notch education as well as a chance to get developed into a potential college football player that could garner a college degree. Probably 1 of the more easier sale pitches going. CPS (Cincinnati Public Schools) is in the same boat but can you imagine if all the inner city kids & half of the cyo kids attended Lasalle. Can you imagine Corey Kiner at Lasalle? I'm WW parent by the way. After watching the Dll state championship game what did competitive balance prove. Really nothing because small cities like Akron & Toledo have surrounding cities that are smaller in population but their school system is failing as well leaving them eligible to attend a private school of choice @ no cost. Just so happens the privates are great in football.
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It's not just the public schools in Akron.
Hoban siphoned off top-level talent from a 5 county area over the past 7 years.
Also, APS is not remarkably worse than it was 10 years ago.
 
DonCalipari said:
Interesting thread. Been on both sides of this argument. With that being said if majority of the public schools are failing in Akron, now it makes sense how Hoban is getting the athletes they're getting. It has to be extremely easy providing kids & parents and in some cases single moms with a vision that their kid will be provided a top notch education as well as a chance to get developed into a potential college football player that could garner a college degree. Probably 1 of the more easier sale pitches going. CPS (Cincinnati Public Schools) is in the same boat but can you imagine if all the inner city kids & half of the cyo kids attended Lasalle. Can you imagine Corey Kiner at Lasalle? I'm WW parent by the way. After watching the Dll state championship game what did competitive balance prove. Really nothing because small cities like Akron & Toledo have surrounding cities that are smaller in population but their school system is failing as well leaving them eligible to attend a private school of choice @ no cost. Just so happens the privates are great in football.
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You consider Akron & Toledo small cities?

Akron Population (With a 2020 population of 198,148, it is the 5th largest city in Ohio)

Toledo Population (With a 2020 population of 271,689, it is the 4th-most-populous city in Ohio)

I hardly call those cities small. You want small, come down to the Mansfield & Ashland areas and see the cities around that area and then tell me what small is.
 
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Hard to argue against that DC. When you have selective admissions, an incoming class is 80, and 50 are good football players, and the other 30 are good at other sports, and you welcome hs transfers, and no pesky 4 year religious requirement, that is a pretty good recipe for competitive success.
 
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thavoice said:
I think they should just keep tweaking the CB numbers/multipliers and never go to the Success factor.

You dont move schools up beacuse they are winning, you move them up because they are getting kids from outside their designated pull zones.
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Yeah but if a school " games the system " and I have no doubt some do, they can recruit and still not be D - 1 or even D - 2. I have no problem with a success factor as long as it doesn't go overboard.
 
thavoice said:
I think they should just keep tweaking the CB numbers/multipliers and never go to the Success factor.

You dont move schools up beacuse they are winning, you move them up because they are getting kids from outside their designated pull zones.
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Kinda agree on that actually. Btw "pull zones" should be an equalized geographic zone, whether public or private. Not a 25 mile range vs. a 0 mile range.

I would however allow the option of moving up. Then they can explain to everyone themselves why they chose to, or not. At least trial that a couple years before going more drastic. What say you Hoban & LaSalle? Kirtland & Maria Stein? That's basically the 4 schools we're currently talking about, right?
 
TigerPaw said:
Kinda agree on that actually. Btw "pull zones" should be an equalized geographic zone, whether public or private. Not a 25 mile range vs. a 0 mile range.

I would however allow the option of moving up. Then they can explain to everyone themselves why they chose to, or not. At least trial that a couple years before going more drastic. What say you Hoban & LaSalle? Kirtland & Maria Stein? That's basically the 4 schools we're currently talking about, right?
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Marion Local has done just fine when they have moved up a division to D6.

Lasalle and Hoban, they are never moving up voluntarily to D1.

I think the processes are in place properly in the CB system, they just MAY need to tweak some of the multipliers.

I would really have to dive into it all regarding the 'pull zones', but that would be difficult. I want to say most, if not all, of our players come within 5-7 miles of the school with a bulk of them less than three miles.

I sort of like how they set up the privates having designated feeder schools, and thsoe out outside of that get "taxed" so to speak.
 
I think I read somewhere, or maybe it was even in another state, the private zone had to be comparable to the public zone they were in or comparable to bordering public counterparts. Some school districts are vast and some are small depending on region and population density, so it would be difficult to have a one size fits all radius imo.
 
Hazardous Whippet said:
You consider Akron & Toledo small cities?

Akron Population (With a 2020 population of 198,148, it is the 5th largest city in Ohio)

Toledo Population (With a 2020 population of 271,689, it is the 4th-most-populous city in Ohio)

I hardly call those cities small. You want small, come down to the Mansfield & Ashland areas and see the cities around that area and then tell me what small is.
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Compared to Cincinnati Cleveland and of course Columbus.
 
Hazardous Whippet said:
I have no idea, I lived no where near Akron. I'm from a small town of just over 9,000
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Ok I see your point, however there are quite a few here in Cincinnati is my point so if the best athletes choose to go parochial schools they are never all at 1 school. Just doesn't happen. It looks like it's Akron St. V or Akron Hoban in the Akron area. Akron has always been filled w athletes. Now you throw in the best kids from surrounding school districts who are failing also & you have what Hoban has created. But to say CB is working is laughable. Here i am thinking my 15 minute commute was bad lol low & behold I'm reading kids coming an hr or so away to attend school. Moeller had a bball kid coming from Xenia so I guess this is the new but Moeller is D1 so CB doesn't effect them.
 
thavoice said:
Marion Local has done just fine when they have moved up a division to D6.

Lasalle and Hoban, they are never moving up voluntarily to D1.

I think the processes are in place properly in the CB system, they just MAY need to tweak some of the multipliers.

I would really have to dive into it all regarding the 'pull zones', but that would be difficult. I want to say most, if not all, of our players come within 5-7 miles of the school with a bulk of them less than three miles.

I sort of like how they set up the privates having designated feeder schools, and thsoe out outside of that get "taxed" so to speak.
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What I don't like about the feeder school setup is that families can opt to send their kid to the closest parochial option yet they still get "taxed".

An example of this is a kid that Newark Catholic may get whose family lives in the Pataskala area. It is considerably closer for them to send their kid to St. Pius in Reynoldsburg versus St. Francis in Newark for grade school. Then, for high school Newark Catholic is closer than Hartley and also considerably less cost.

If a kid is already in the parochial system then it shouldn't matter which grade school they go to.
 
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