Was the ball catchable by an infielder using ordinary effort? If the answer is yes to that question, then it meets the criteria for infield fly. In terms of assessing that play, it falls in the "had to be there" bucket.
Umpires (and fans maybe?) Helping Umpires
- Thread starter CoachHoversten
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Was the ball catchable by an infielder using ordinary effort? If the answer is yes to that question, then it meets the criteria for infield fly. In terms of assessing that play, it falls in the "had to be there" bucket.
CoachHoversten
Well-known member
@Mutant...you got the call right. IFF is not a rule that is meant to be interpreted based on the age, size, speed, or ability of whatever IF happens to be closest to the call. You could have a pop fly that doesn’t require F4 to move and he could get himself all twisted around and look the fool if he doesn’t know what he’s doing, but that doesn’t mean the IFF rule is not in effect.
Its designed toprotect the runners and is supposed to be declared before the ball is on its downward trajectory, so you can’t know the IF is not talented enough to make a routine catch.
even playing in, the grass is not a difficult place to get to in order to catch a pop up.
I’d simply tell the coach “okay, I’ll tell the other team the next time a pop up is hit they should turn their back to me instead of backing up a step and I won’t call it, and I’ll bet you are out here yelling at me when they get 2 outs instead of 1, and I’ll just say “well they had their back to me”
Its designed toprotect the runners and is supposed to be declared before the ball is on its downward trajectory, so you can’t know the IF is not talented enough to make a routine catch.
even playing in, the grass is not a difficult place to get to in order to catch a pop up.
I’d simply tell the coach “okay, I’ll tell the other team the next time a pop up is hit they should turn their back to me instead of backing up a step and I won’t call it, and I’ll bet you are out here yelling at me when they get 2 outs instead of 1, and I’ll just say “well they had their back to me”
CoachHoversten
Well-known member
Bucksman, your point was valid obviously, but the coach saying “if they turn their back to you...” is what I hate; as AllSports would say, interjecting something into the rule that doesn’t exist.
But I always treat “ordinary effort” as if a solid IF is playing; not joe-ball-bag who is getting his league required playing time
But I always treat “ordinary effort” as if a solid IF is playing; not joe-ball-bag who is getting his league required playing time
AllSports12
Moderator
Every rule code that I know of states.....
"which can be caught with ordinary effort"
not
"which is caught with ordinary effort"
"which can be caught with ordinary effort"
not
"which is caught with ordinary effort"
AllSports12
Moderator
And if we used that as the standard, then a ball 30 feet into the outfield would never be able to be ruled an IFF.
We know that's not the case.
Thavoice
Well-known member
Said it before and will again......saw an ump portray this on both sides of the spectrum.
Be confident, be vocal, own the call and control the situation.
Bad call. HC comes out to question HO ump, which is fine. Another coach starts to walk out and the base umpire put him into his place and shut it down immediately. If I had a guess, he was a cop.
By owning and controlling it was done and over with.
Other situation: bad call. Ump was tentative, uncertain and wishy washy and the situation lasted the rest of the game
Own the call, control the situation
Be confident, be vocal, own the call and control the situation.
Bad call. HC comes out to question HO ump, which is fine. Another coach starts to walk out and the base umpire put him into his place and shut it down immediately. If I had a guess, he was a cop.
By owning and controlling it was done and over with.
Other situation: bad call. Ump was tentative, uncertain and wishy washy and the situation lasted the rest of the game
Own the call, control the situation
CoachHoversten
Well-known member
Okay, so I started this thread bc I was fed up with the umpiring at my sons games, but I honestly want to help people get better the way others have helped me. Then I go to my sons game last night and I’m just steamed again; so let me refresh some of my rants and subsequent advice:
1) Move from behind the plate! When you are doing a solo game, no one cares if you miss something (like a touch of a base) or get a close call wrong as long as you show some effort. My son is a good catcher and threw three kids out at second; but only one was called out. One was close so can kind of forgive it but the other was so blatantly obvious, the kid was out by 3 steps and didn’t even slide; umpire took half a step to his right and signaled safe. His explanation to the coach was “I can’t get out frombehind the plate because I have to stay home to get the pitch”. Again, it’s a 127 foot throw, pop time usually ranges from 2 to 2.5 seconds; it’s enough time to get a few steps out and get an angle; it simply looks better.
2) No one cares about your credentials when you are blowing calls left and right. R3 comes home on dribbler between F1 and F5, pitcher underhand lobs ball to catcher, R3 had literally finished his slide, momentum was stopped, when catcher caught ball and tagged R3 on the stomach. Umpire signals out. Again being questioned and he said “I’m a class 1 umpire coach, I know what I’m doing”. Meanwhile, class 1 means you did high school for 2 years, it doesn’t mean anything when you don’t hustle and are out of position (He called it from behind the sliding runner, up the 3B line). Ironically if he stayed home like usual he would have been in better position, but was like he was getting out of the way of the play and moved about 7-8 ft up the 3B line
3) Slow down - I said this in my initial post but on that play at home he was calling out about the time the catcher caught the ball. On balls and strikes (which he did actually have a decent strike zone, that I will give him with exception of calling a strike on my son on a fastball that bounced in the dirt before it got to the catcher), he was calling them as the ball hit the glove. Slow down, watch a D1 college World Series and watch how long it takes the umpires to call safe and out.
4) Solo game - again, working solo is tough, but when you are getting $60 cash for 2 hours (30/hour which is equivalent to about $38.50/hour at a tax paying job) you simply have to hustle, it’s all any reasonable person or coach can ask for. The game before the team had bases loaded and on a hit, R1 missed second base, a handful of us saw it. Told my son to appeal it, umpire didn’t see it, no one got mad at him. one umpire can’t see all four touches, and everyone understood it and he got benefit of doubt bc he hustled on every play, he was out in the working area on a double; he got up line on plays to 1, etc. just hustle and 90% of your problems go away
1) Move from behind the plate! When you are doing a solo game, no one cares if you miss something (like a touch of a base) or get a close call wrong as long as you show some effort. My son is a good catcher and threw three kids out at second; but only one was called out. One was close so can kind of forgive it but the other was so blatantly obvious, the kid was out by 3 steps and didn’t even slide; umpire took half a step to his right and signaled safe. His explanation to the coach was “I can’t get out frombehind the plate because I have to stay home to get the pitch”. Again, it’s a 127 foot throw, pop time usually ranges from 2 to 2.5 seconds; it’s enough time to get a few steps out and get an angle; it simply looks better.
2) No one cares about your credentials when you are blowing calls left and right. R3 comes home on dribbler between F1 and F5, pitcher underhand lobs ball to catcher, R3 had literally finished his slide, momentum was stopped, when catcher caught ball and tagged R3 on the stomach. Umpire signals out. Again being questioned and he said “I’m a class 1 umpire coach, I know what I’m doing”. Meanwhile, class 1 means you did high school for 2 years, it doesn’t mean anything when you don’t hustle and are out of position (He called it from behind the sliding runner, up the 3B line). Ironically if he stayed home like usual he would have been in better position, but was like he was getting out of the way of the play and moved about 7-8 ft up the 3B line
3) Slow down - I said this in my initial post but on that play at home he was calling out about the time the catcher caught the ball. On balls and strikes (which he did actually have a decent strike zone, that I will give him with exception of calling a strike on my son on a fastball that bounced in the dirt before it got to the catcher), he was calling them as the ball hit the glove. Slow down, watch a D1 college World Series and watch how long it takes the umpires to call safe and out.
4) Solo game - again, working solo is tough, but when you are getting $60 cash for 2 hours (30/hour which is equivalent to about $38.50/hour at a tax paying job) you simply have to hustle, it’s all any reasonable person or coach can ask for. The game before the team had bases loaded and on a hit, R1 missed second base, a handful of us saw it. Told my son to appeal it, umpire didn’t see it, no one got mad at him. one umpire can’t see all four touches, and everyone understood it and he got benefit of doubt bc he hustled on every play, he was out in the working area on a double; he got up line on plays to 1, etc. just hustle and 90% of your problems go away
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rossford_resident
Active member
Saw the HP ump get an 80 MPH fastball off the top of his knee in a 54/80 13U game over the weekend when the catcher completely whiffed. Ouch.
CoachHoversten
Well-known member
When I umpire solo, I can get about halfway to the mound on a throwdown to 2nd base, the umpire not only didn't move, but he actually told the coach "I don't have time to move from behind the plate because I have to get the ball/strike", so yes, I can criticize his lack of hustle and even worse, justifying it (acknowledging he isn't doing it) with a made-up excuse.
And yes, it involved my son because he is a good catcher, and when the opposing team's coach tells my son "they were out", and one was so bad that he was laughing about it, and when everyone on the field saw it because the kid gave himself up and didn't even bother to slide because he was dead by 4 steps, and the immobile umpire calls him safe, I have every right to criticize. Not because a call was missed, but because he didn't bother to move or try to get the call right.
Try reading the posts in this thread, it is supposed to be about giving advice to umpires, and one of the big ones that everyone hates seeing is an umpire who doesn't bother to get in to position. If you don't want to or are unable to (due to physical impairments), then you should not be umpiring.
rossford_resident
Active member
The closest I've ever gotten to a physical confrontation at a baseball game was watching my 13 year old umpire a coach pitch game. Good grief, people can be idiots sometimes.
zebrastripes
Well-known member
99.9 percent of the time, when this line is used, it is by an insecure official who, in fact, does not know what (s)he is doing. And almost always an official that very few of us want to work with.
If it didn’t hit his pads he was in some pain!!
rossford_resident
Active member
Observations from another weekend of tournament action:
1.) Two coaches ejected over four days in a 16 team field doesn't seem terrible given the 90 degree temperatures: both times for arguing judgment calls at 1B. The second ejection occurred in a semi-final for a team that is not used to losing. The coach came to the tournament director after the game so he could express his displeasure with the umpiring in person.
2.) The same crew sent a group of dads standing near the dugout far down the RF line after two innings. "You can chirp all you want fellas, you're just going to do it down there where I don't have to listen to it." ? I thought it was handled well. He didn't argue with them or threaten to eject them from the site - just told them to take it to the OF. They were sufficiently chastened for the next game.
3.) A couple of the older guys talked to the catchers before the game started (13U kids) about what their job was: block the ball and keep me from getting hit. The field had a short backstop and not all of the kids were putting much effort into blocking balls in the dirt. The umps basically told them that - if they had to dodge low pitches all day - it would be difficult to get a consistent strike zone.
4.) It seems like the more expensive/high profile a travel program is - the less inclined they are to send kids after foul balls.
1.) Two coaches ejected over four days in a 16 team field doesn't seem terrible given the 90 degree temperatures: both times for arguing judgment calls at 1B. The second ejection occurred in a semi-final for a team that is not used to losing. The coach came to the tournament director after the game so he could express his displeasure with the umpiring in person.
2.) The same crew sent a group of dads standing near the dugout far down the RF line after two innings. "You can chirp all you want fellas, you're just going to do it down there where I don't have to listen to it." ? I thought it was handled well. He didn't argue with them or threaten to eject them from the site - just told them to take it to the OF. They were sufficiently chastened for the next game.
3.) A couple of the older guys talked to the catchers before the game started (13U kids) about what their job was: block the ball and keep me from getting hit. The field had a short backstop and not all of the kids were putting much effort into blocking balls in the dirt. The umps basically told them that - if they had to dodge low pitches all day - it would be difficult to get a consistent strike zone.
4.) It seems like the more expensive/high profile a travel program is - the less inclined they are to send kids after foul balls.
Thavoice
Well-known member
1 and 2.
Coaches and parents who feel the need to argue enough at those levels dont belong in the game of baseball.
3. That is just common sense across the board. A pitcher who is always around the plate will tend to get more boarderline calls than a guy who is all over the place.
4. Entitled. Drives me nuts when a 13-14 yr old goes up there with arm guards, leg guards, gloves they change into when they get on base, and when they get on base, lets say a double, time is called and the coach runs to the player on second to get all his gear instead of the other way around, and/or just plain making someone else gather their gear after an AB....
..or my favorite. A team has multiple players on the bench, yet the coach goes out and warms up the pitcher.
Anyone seen this story from a few years ago? I have seen the video special but cannot download it on this puter.
Video: Arizona baseball team pays tribute to fallen Army Sgt. Tyler Prewitt
Greenway senior Matthew McDonald delivers special home run during team's final regular season game.
web-2.azpreps365.com
CoachHoversten
Well-known member
1) Were the coaches ever warned? To be tossed without a warning means the argument had to be really bad, otherwise it wasn’t warranted. Acknowledge, warn, then eject.
2) I would be curious to hear AllSports chime in, but my head assignor for summer tournaments is a D1 umpire and he told me literally a week ago that “we have no interaction with fans”. If a fan is an issue (or two in this case), an umpire should go to the coach and say “coach, lose those fans or I’m losing you”.
3) umpires shouldn’t have to “dodge” pitches in the dirt. A ball in the dirt will hit your shoe or leg guard, neither of which hurts. I had a guy throwing 85 yesterday and I don’t flinch when a ball is in the dirt. If an umpire is scared of balls in the dirt at 13U, he either doesn’t have proper equipment or he isn’t experienced enough to be confident to just stand-in there.
rossford_resident
Active member
Yeah, I'd say both coaches were warned in a "Coach, that's enough..." sort of way.
I would agree re: interaction with fans. I hate it when parents complain about officiating - any sport, any level. To me, though, there's a difference between audible sighs, gasps, etc. on close pitches and directly speaking to the umpire/official. I also agree that it should be on the coaches to handle it and the official shouldn't talk to parents/spectators at all. If a parent is far enough out of line that you need to speak to the coach, then the coach already should have handled it and ending the game should absolutely be on the table. One of my player's grandfathers showed up drunk to a game a couple of years ago and started commenting about the umpire being short: that's probably as fast as my kids have seen me move in years...
"What are you, a midget?"
"This midget's about to come over this fence and kick your..."
Felt so bad for the kid...
1&2 - don't interact with fans. Ever. Regardless of level. If it's not a tourney, go to the head coach on that side and ask him to take care of it. If he won't they are his responsibility. Actions accordingly follow. If it is a tourney, get the site manager or director. If they are not to be found (often an issue), get a coach to call them. Lodge the complaint with them. It is their job. I get the usual arguments of they want to keep the coaches happy because the teams paid to be there, but this is an efficient way to handle it.
I ejected one fan ten years ago. It was a something that, let's just say was egregious and I needed to deal with. Ten minutes later the game ended and he was on the ground in handcuffs with four cops by him because he left the area, was intoxicated, and someone called the police. He then tried to fight them in the parking lot. I called my assignor and they told me "You're right, fans are not your problem but in this case had to do what you had to do." Local baseball director even called the assignor and complimented my handling of it.
As for #3, I've heard that happen with partners before. Don't like it, don't do it myself. As the umpire instructors at pro school would do, they'd tap your mask with a ball over and over until you got it in your head to trust your equipment. Yes, it stings/hurts/sucks, but this is our job.
Finally, nothing - NOTHING - irritates me more than failure to retrieve foul balls. I tell the coaches at the pre-game: "I need you and your teams help - everyone really - to bring back foul balls. Let's work together to keep the game moving and have your guys take care of your side of homeplate. I'll let you know when I'm running so if you could do me a favor and have a player run them out to me." Not perfect, but better than not addressing it. The "I'm too good to leave this bench and get foul balls" is something my old coach would have kicked our butts for. Did a tournament recently where if you brought a ball back to the tournament guy you got a mini-candy bar. I had eight baseballs at one point because the fans were on it.
I ejected one fan ten years ago. It was a something that, let's just say was egregious and I needed to deal with. Ten minutes later the game ended and he was on the ground in handcuffs with four cops by him because he left the area, was intoxicated, and someone called the police. He then tried to fight them in the parking lot. I called my assignor and they told me "You're right, fans are not your problem but in this case had to do what you had to do." Local baseball director even called the assignor and complimented my handling of it.
As for #3, I've heard that happen with partners before. Don't like it, don't do it myself. As the umpire instructors at pro school would do, they'd tap your mask with a ball over and over until you got it in your head to trust your equipment. Yes, it stings/hurts/sucks, but this is our job.
Finally, nothing - NOTHING - irritates me more than failure to retrieve foul balls. I tell the coaches at the pre-game: "I need you and your teams help - everyone really - to bring back foul balls. Let's work together to keep the game moving and have your guys take care of your side of homeplate. I'll let you know when I'm running so if you could do me a favor and have a player run them out to me." Not perfect, but better than not addressing it. The "I'm too good to leave this bench and get foul balls" is something my old coach would have kicked our butts for. Did a tournament recently where if you brought a ball back to the tournament guy you got a mini-candy bar. I had eight baseballs at one point because the fans were on it.
rossford_resident
Active member
Good info. I was roped into helping with tournaments the last couple of weekends. What do you guys consider fan behavior that needs to be addressed? In my example, it was three or four dads that would mutter "where was that" or "ooohhh" on every close call. Not really directed at the ump - just four guys watching the game together and talking back and forth. They also questioned the quality of the baseballs, the roster makeup of the other team, etc. Seemed to me like the kind of stuff that happens at every game I go to, regardless of sport. At the same time, I told them after the game (they were due back for another game in a couple of hours) that I needed the umpires to finish the tournament more than I needed them to hit up the concession stand. They understood and toned it down. Just curious as to how much you guys are willing to put up with...
I don't think you can do much about the "where was that" type comments. Going to happen. Half of them will disagree with every call you make anyway. When you say they questioned the quality of the ball (which, ironically the adult game I worked the other night this came up too - and they provided the balls as a league!), roster, etc. - was this like screaming and yelling, or just comments? You learn to ignore them on the field. If they are coming to you as the TD I guess that comes with the territory. I have worked tourneys before in similar roles and there's a complaint about everything. My favorite was the lights on the field were Musco which apparently is a terrible company. Yeah, because I can control with a DIII college does for lighting...considering how many fields don't have any lights.
I think you handled it well - calm, collected and a "hey let's help each other" type of attitude. I like hearing that as opposed to something escalated.
I tend to hear the stands but over the years have learned to drown them out. If it's a somewhat funny one, you might see me smirk towards my partner or crew between innings.
Thavoice
Well-known member
So you were not umping right?
This is what I was talking about the other day about umpires and rabbit ears. Just idle talk amongst fans does not need the umpire to address.
As a director and such, yeah i guess you can interject on that but the umps....let it go
Thavoice
Well-known member
Some coaches really do just wish for the right call, no matter what.I had a coach come out to me in the bottom of the 7th, his team down a run and i had a banger at 1B for the first out. Here comes the coach walking quickly calling time and I say to myself, "Oh boy, here we go"... coach got close to me so no one would hear him and said, "That was a great call"... I tend not to laugh or smile... He said, "I need to come out and look like I am arguing so the parents don't give me crap for not sticking up for their kids on close calls"... I said ok and we talked for about 30 seconds about the game and how he was upset at his team... and he walked away. After the game he looked over at me and said "Thanks Blue" with a wink and nod... never forget that moment.
Within the last decade. Local youth coach pulled this in a championship game.
Opposing team hits the go ahead HR in the top of the last inning. Before the hitter got to the plate, players gave him high 5's and such, and umpire called him out, stating no one is allowed to touch the runner.
3rd out. Game would be tied going into the bottom of the last inning.
Opposing coach talked to the umpire. Reasoned with him that the call was wrong, and the run was allowed to score to take the lead.
That team does end up winning the game, but the integrity of the coach really was the winner because he got the umpire to change the call, even though it hurts his team in a pivotal time of the game.
CoachHoversten
Well-known member
I ignore every comment I hear from fans unless it is a personal attack on me or an opposing player or coach. I had a 14U tournament championship game a couple weeks back, one of the Premiere teams, was horrible, worst I have ever experienced as an umpire. The head coach, the fans, never seen anything like it. I should have thrown out every adult there (for what it is worth, I had zero issues with any players except the catcher showing me up when he didnt get calls), not a single kid said a word or was out of line, but the parents and head coach were the lowest I have ever seen.
One fan told my 14 year old son (he was my base umpire) after the game that he should put a bag over his head and tie it real tight. The head coach charged the field and berated my son on a banger at 3rd base when his kid was rang up (my mom was videotaping from the press box and watching it frame by frame, he got the call right).
I should have thrown out every single adult on that half of the field.
At one point, I told the coach to lose the fan I heard the most or I was losing him and I didnt hear another word from him until magically when their team lost in a walk off, game is over, he started hollering again (so he didnt leave, just shut up during play) and is the one who told my son when he walked over by fence to get his drink to basically go kill himself.
One fan told my 14 year old son (he was my base umpire) after the game that he should put a bag over his head and tie it real tight. The head coach charged the field and berated my son on a banger at 3rd base when his kid was rang up (my mom was videotaping from the press box and watching it frame by frame, he got the call right).
I should have thrown out every single adult on that half of the field.
At one point, I told the coach to lose the fan I heard the most or I was losing him and I didnt hear another word from him until magically when their team lost in a walk off, game is over, he started hollering again (so he didnt leave, just shut up during play) and is the one who told my son when he walked over by fence to get his drink to basically go kill himself.
rossford_resident
Active member
Nice. My 15 year old wound up handling the bases on the field behind me when one of the umps didn't show. The tournament director walks up and says, "man, that's one ugly umpire over there." I look over and see a guy in khaki shorts and a bucket hat and think: what in the world is that guy thinking, showing up dressed like that? Took me a minute to recognize him because he had a facemask on.
These guys did not address one comment to the umpire: just talking amongst themselves. They were loud enough for the ump to hear, which I'm sure wasn't an accident, but to me it's just something you have to let roll off your back: the same with the comments about the balls being cheap and "mushy." I did mention to them that five different 13 year-olds over the course of the weekend had managed to hit balls 300+ feet into a 10 MPH wind. Not sure it was the ball's fault. Maybe the quality of the pitching made it harder to barrel one up.
The worst complaints all weekend were from a team from out-of-state who hadn't lost all year after they were knocked out in the semis by a team that's funded by a casino owner from Detroit. Worst umpiring they'd seen since Little League, apparently. Too bad it had to end that way after a really high quality game. 13U kids that throw 70+ and have 12/6 curve balls are something to see.
And folks wonder why there is an umpire shortage. Your son doing ok?
CoachHoversten
Well-known member
my head assignor was great about it, he told him, “I want YOU (meaning my son) throwing people out. We train and want to retain our umpires, and learning that he doesn’t have to deal with that behavior is a step.
anywahs, my son made a rookie mistake and went to engage with the man, I didn’t hear the comment as I was waiting for him by the plate, but yelled for him to get over here (by me) and told him we done address fans, especially bad ones.
should mention that earlier in the game the stallions player was on 2nd and pitcher wheeled for pick off. Kid was safe, son rang him up. Stallions coach came up to him, said “I think he beat the tag” and walked away. No yelling, showing up, very professional about it.
I saw stallions and premiere are merging, I hope they take the role of that stallions coach. His kids, parents, and coaches were 1st class
AllSports12
Moderator
Directly engaging a fan in the stands just isn't a good idea.
When I worked summer ball (no longer do anything youth related for the reasons noted above) and the idiots crossed the line, I just grabbed the coach and told him that we aren't continuing until they left. No yelling, no screaming, no threatening....... one on one quietly. If it was a timed game, i reminded him the kids were being penalized for the delay. If it wasn't timed, I got all day and no place else to be........
Worked every (too many) time.
When I worked summer ball (no longer do anything youth related for the reasons noted above) and the idiots crossed the line, I just grabbed the coach and told him that we aren't continuing until they left. No yelling, no screaming, no threatening....... one on one quietly. If it was a timed game, i reminded him the kids were being penalized for the delay. If it wasn't timed, I got all day and no place else to be........
Worked every (too many) time.
CoachHoversten
Well-known member
I agree, I yelled at him to turn around and get to me. The issue was the game was over so really no recourse other than telling the TD, and maybe they aren’t invited back.