Ask The Ump?

[CoachHoversten]

I thought Of a more likely scenario that would occur than the outfielder throwing the ball over the fence voluntarily. Runner on first is stealing on the pitch, line drive is caught by an infielder who then throws it out of play trying to get the runner out as well. Runner advances to third on the dead ball without ever touching first, defense appeals. Same result but a more likely scenario

 

[AllSports12]

Here’s one for you AllSports, and I’m curious your thoughts, as this was a hot debate at our umpires dinner last night (9 umpires from various fields of a tournament we were working met for dinner)

Situation: Runners on 1st and 3rd, one out. Deep fly ball hit to outfield. Runner on 3rd is tagging, runner on 1st is standing near 2B (but has not touched or passed it) waiting to see what happens.

outfielder makes the catch at the fence for out #2, and upon completion of the catch, removes ball from his glove and tosses it over his shoulder out of play.

umpires immediately declare dead ball and award two bases to each runner.

R1, who was near 2B when it was caught had only retreated a couple steps when dead ball was declared. So he stops and advances to third, legally touching second on the way.

defensive team appeals to first base that R1 never legally returned to retouch 1B after the catch.

what’s your call?

The defense has made a proper appeal, R1 is out for failing to retouch first.

The awarding of bases does not absolve the runner of the responsibility of touching those bases and any other base he's required to touch. In this situation since the runner had not passed second base when the ball became dead, he still is permitted to retouch 1st base, then second base to legally complete his base award.

Had R1 been past second base when the ball became dead, he loses that ability to retouch first base and can be put out on proper appeal, (even if he physically goes back and retouches 1st) (8-2-5; 8-4-2q)

Please note.... the run (R3) counts.

 

[AllSports12]

I thought Of a more likely scenario that would occur than the outfielder throwing the ball over the fence voluntarily. Runner on first is stealing on the pitch, line drive is caught by an infielder who then throws it out of play trying to get the runner out as well. Runner advances to third on the dead ball without ever touching first, defense appeals. Same result but a more likely scenario

Agreed that this is more routine, but the ruling is the same.

Larry Walker, when he was with the Expos, caught a ball and handed it to a fan with runners on back in the 90's (I think it was at Dodger Stadium) and Milton Bradley chucked a ball into the bleachers at Wrigley after thinking his catch was the third out. Bradley's situation was the same as yours, minus the failure to retouch and subsequent appeal

 

[CoachHoversten]

Wow, this is such an interesting situation. So the guy who first brought this up at dinner was correct but did not elaborate correctly, he had said the runner (R1) was not permitted to re-touch first bc it was a dead ball, ie, the defense saw the runner and purposely did it to get the third out, all he had to do was say runner was past (or on?) second base and he would be 100% correct.

trying to imagine coaching my outfielder this...guarantees out #3 if at second or beyond and realistically has a 50/50 chance of him not going back to first if umpires declare dead ball and award third base, he only need touch second on dead ball and he’s stuck

 

[Yappi]

So here is a question from a softball game but I wanted to see how it would be handled in baseball.

Runner on 3rd base. Line smash towards 3rd base. Ball hits the bag as the runner is returning to the bag in fear of it being caught. Ball bounces off of the bag and hits the 3rd base coach in foul territory (he is in the coach's box). Runner gets on his feet and starts to run when the ball bounces into his feet and is knocked out of play (unintentional).

The 3rd baseman was playing behind the bag on the play and it never got to him. The runner was in fair territory when he was unintentionally hit by the ball.

The softball umpire said that the runner was out because the ball never passed the fielder (slight difference in rules between softball/baseball). The umpire said the runner was out because it was still a batted ball.

My question is would this be the ruling in baseball? Also, at what point does a batted ball lose it's status as a batted ball? I couldn't find a rule about it (because it is such an odd play) but I would have thought a ball the hit the base and then the base coach at some point would lose that status.

Also, the umpire appeared to indicate that the position of the runner mattered. If inside the line, they are out. If they had been outside the line, safe.

Sorry for the off-the-wall question but this has bothered me for some time. I think of this like an animal (ie cat, squirrel, bird) getting on the field and the ball being redirected and hitting a runner. Seems that this should no longer be a batted ball but maybe it is just because of the rarity of the event.

 

[AllSports12]

So here is a question from a softball game but I wanted to see how it would be handled in baseball.

Runner on 3rd base. Line smash towards 3rd base. Ball hits the bag as the runner is returning to the bag in fear of it being caught. Ball bounces off of the bag and hits the 3rd base coach in foul territory (he is in the coach's box). Runner gets on his feet and starts to run when the ball bounces into his feet and is knocked out of play (unintentional).

The 3rd baseman was playing behind the bag on the play and it never got to him. The runner was in fair territory when he was unintentionally hit by the ball.

The softball umpire said that the runner was out because the ball never passed the fielder (slight difference in rules between softball/baseball). The umpire said the runner was out because it was still a batted ball.

My question is would this be the ruling in baseball? Also, at what point does a batted ball lose it's status as a batted ball? I couldn't find a rule about it (because it is such an odd play) but I would have thought a ball the hit the base and then the base coach at some point would lose that status.

Also, the umpire appeared to indicate that the position of the runner mattered. If inside the line, they are out. If they had been outside the line, safe.

Sorry for the off-the-wall question but this has bothered me for some time. I think of this like an animal (ie cat, squirrel, bird) getting on the field and the ball being redirected and hitting a runner. Seems that this should no longer be a batted ball but maybe it is just because of the rarity of the event.

Ah..... the beauty of baseball. As soon as you think you've seen it or heard it all, you see or hear something new.

First, a batted ball remains a batted ball until 1) it becomes dead by rule -- or --- 2) it is possessed by a fielder or the pitcher. So in this case, even after the ball hits the bag, then the coach (who is where he is supposed to be)... it is still a batted ball.

Now, Rule 8-4-2 states... "Any runner is out when he:"

(k) is contacted by a fair batted ball before it touches an infielder, or after it passes any infielder, except the pitcher, and the umpire is convinced that another infielder has a play

When we look at your play, we find that...

1) We still have a batted ball
2) The ball is a fair batted ball
3) It has not touched a fielder
4) It has not passed any fielder, except the pitcher

Therefore.... The ball is now dead, the runner is out, all other runners return to the base they occupied at the time of the pitch (unless forced to move), batter-runner awarded first base.

Umpire has lots of explaining to do the the Offensive Head Coach, Umpire probably will be ejecting someone

 

[CoachHoversten]

Just to add a caveat as your answer gave a clear indication of why it is an out, but the only part that was not addresses was the runner being in fair territory.

Just to clarify, since the ball hit the bag, it is now a fair ball and where the runner was when he/she was hit would be irrelevant correct? The ball is fair even though it caromed foul, and so even if the runner was in foul territory they are still out.

And that umpire should get a raise if they knew that whole situation/ruling (as opposed to a "lucky guess")

 

[Thavoice]

Just to add a caveat as your answer gave a clear indication of why it is an out, but the only part that was not addresses was the runner being in fair territory.

Just to clarify, since the ball hit the bag, it is now a fair ball and where the runner was when he/she was hit would be irrelevant correct? The ball is fair even though it caromed foul, and so even if the runner was in foul territory they are still out.

And that umpire should get a raise if they knew that whole situation/ruling (as opposed to a "lucky guess")

Can we get clarification on if the runner is out, as stated above, even if the runner is in foul territory after getting struck by the ball that hit the base.......

 

[CoachHoversten]

Can we get clarification on if the runner is out, as stated above, even if the runner is in foul territory after getting struck by the ball that hit the base.......

I am sure he will chime in when he sees it, but I can almost assure you that the runner is in fact still out. The general philosophy of why a runner on 3rd should stand in foul territory is if they are hit by a batted ball, they are safe as the ball is foul. However, once the ball hit the bag, it becomes a fair ball and will "forever be" a fair ball, no matter where it hits the runner. The same reasoning why the ball was not declared foul when it hit the base coach who was standing in foul territory

 

[AllSports12]

I am sure he will chime in when he sees it, but I can almost assure you that the runner is in fact still out. The general philosophy of why a runner on 3rd should stand in foul territory is if they are hit by a batted ball, they are safe as the ball is foul. However, once the ball hit the bag, it becomes a fair ball and will "forever be" a fair ball, no matter where it hits the runner. The same reasoning why the ball was not declared foul when it hit the base coach who was standing in foul territory

Correct....

Where he is in relation to the foul line is irrelevant in this play.

 

[AllSports12]

And that umpire should get a raise if they knew that whole situation/ruling (as opposed to a "lucky guess")

I disagree.

We are paid to know the rules. When we break the situations down, it's not that difficult. We earn our reputations by ruling correctly and then handling the aftermath in a professional manner.

One of my former colleagues used to say (still does) "we get to use our people skills"

 

[Thavoice]

Correct....

Where he is in relation to the foul line is irrelevant in this play.

Thank you.
I so want this to happen in a game now to see everyone lose their minds, and you know they will, if this gets called correctly!

 

[Thavoice]

Happened in the Reds game over the weekend.

Runner on first, gets hit by the batted ball and called out. How obvious does it have to be for you to call it a DP? Do you really need to see the runner try to get hit? Or simply not making any attempt to move good enough to rule a DP?

 

[CoachHoversten]

I am not familiar enough with MLBs rule differences vs NFHS/NCAA, but there is nothing in the rule book that says a runner must attempt to avoid a batted ball. If a runner is hit by a batted ball, it is a dead ball, runner is out, batter is awarded first, and all runners return to base occupied at the time of the pitch unless forced up by the batter getting first.

now, if the runner intentionally interferes, I’m imagining him standing there watching it come towards him, and he swats it away and towards foul territory, you can get interference which can result in a DP, but that’s a separate infraction than a runner being hit.

The runner not moving is not evidence of interference. As the base umpire I’ve had a couple liners right at me that you instinctively freeze on bc you are unsure of best path to avoiding the ball.

 

[Thavoice]

I am not familiar enough with MLBs rule differences vs NFHS/NCAA, but there is nothing in the rule book that says a runner must attempt to avoid a batted ball. If a runner is hit by a batted ball, it is a dead ball, runner is out, batter is awarded first, and all runners return to base occupied at the time of the pitch unless forced up by the batter getting first.

now, if the runner intentionally interferes, I’m imagining him standing there watching it come towards him, and he swats it away and towards foul territory, you can get interference which can result in a DP, but that’s a separate infraction than a runner being hit.

The runner not moving is not evidence of interference. As the base umpire I’ve had a couple liners right at me that you instinctively freeze on bc you are unsure of best path to avoiding the ball.

Sort of what I thought. Person was watching it with said that if the runner did not attempt to get out of the way it should be a DP, and I disagreed. I figured it would ahve to be intentional to before it would be calle.d

 

[umpire16]

Two good ones recently. Both playing NFHS rules.

1) R1, R2, one out. Laser to center field that was 50-50 chance for a catch. R2 takes off. R1 hesitates and reads (CF threw a guy out at second inning prior). BR is, honestly, the fastest kid I've ever seen. He rounds first and is ten feet towards second when CF one hops it and throws a little wide to home. At time of throw, BR and R1 are both in between first and second. Throw goes into deadball territory. I kill it and place the runners at second and third. Coach decides to argue we missed it because "you can't screw my runner for a good read. He would have had second on a clean hit. He should score." He didn't care about the rules explanation, so he found himself in the parking lot.

2). R1 one out, going on the pitch (hit and run). Batter smokes one to LF. R1 has touched second and is on his way to third. Catch made, runner is in trouble. He doesn't re-touch second, he just heads to first. Throw comes in, almost gets him, and ends up in dugout. Two base award puts him at third, and thus touches second on the way. Coach insists they can appeal the missed base still once we start back up. I put the ball in play normally anticipating this improper appeal. I point and say "play." Coach says, "ok, throw to first for the appeal." Clearly the wrong base. The pitcher, a lefty, realizes this mid-move, and first fakes a throw to first then turns and throws to second. So now we have a balk and a run. Coach doesn't even bother to come out. I just smiled to myself under my mask.

 

[umpire16]

Im not sure if there is a set answer, but my first thoughts:

1) explore different sock options. Idk the name of the fabric but find “cooling” or “breathable” fabric rather than cotton or wool. I always call it dri-fit but that might not be the official name. I wear Dri-fit socks, undershirt, and even my hat is the breathable fabric (got at Purchase Officials Supply)

2) Remove shoes between games. Might seem obvious but when I have two plates in a row I rarely remove anything other than my hat, once in a while my chest protector, but if it’s that hot and feet are burning, remove the shoes, sit in AC, and if you brought a cooler for ice and drinks, have something you can set in there so shoes sit on top of it in the cooler without being in the ice to cool them down

3) AS might disagree but if it’s that hot, and there is shade somewhere on the field, stand in it between innings. I know HPU is supposed to be watching pitches or on foul line, and BU in right field, but if it’s that hot, no one is going to judge if you go stand in the shade between innings

For your feet this is great advice, especially #1 & #2. Another thing you can do is use O'Keefe's foot cream. It's not an umpire product. But if you lather up about a dime size glob on each foot before putting socks on,, it keeps your feet moisturized and conditioned. It will also help insulate them a little bit on turf especially. A military buddy told me about this a few years ago (he is an umpire too) and I thought he was nuts, but it works wonders.

 

[CoachHoversten]

Two good ones recently. Both playing NFHS rules.

1) R1, R2, one out. Laser to center field that was 50-50 chance for a catch. R2 takes off. R1 hesitates and reads (CF threw a guy out at second inning prior). BR is, honestly, the fastest kid I've ever seen. He rounds first and is ten feet towards second when CF one hops it and throws a little wide to home. At time of throw, BR and R1 are both in between first and second. Throw goes into deadball territory. I kill it and place the runners at second and third. Coach decides to argue we missed it because "you can't screw my runner for a good read. He would have had second on a clean hit. He should score." He didn't care about the rules explanation, so he found himself in the parking lot.

2). R1 one out, going on the pitch (hit and run). Batter smokes one to LF. R1 has touched second and is on his way to third. Catch made, runner is in trouble. He doesn't re-touch second, he just heads to first. Throw comes in, almost gets him, and ends up in dugout. Two base award puts him at third, and thus touches second on the way. Coach insists they can appeal the missed base still once we start back up. I put the ball in play normally anticipating this improper appeal. I point and say "play." Coach says, "ok, throw to first for the appeal." Clearly the wrong base. The pitcher, a lefty, realizes this mid-move, and first fakes a throw to first then turns and throws to second. So now we have a balk and a run. Coach doesn't even bother to come out. I just smiled to myself under my mask.

1) Your ruling was spot on. Both runners (R1 and batter-runner) had legally last obtained 1st base, and are awarded two bases, but since they can not occupy the same base, the lead runner is given 2 bases and the batter 1 base. You can't advance one 3 bases because he is forced to move up by batter being awarded 2, that would be a 3-base award so now you are punishing the defense for a "bad read" by R1.

2) A runner can not legally re-touch a base when they have passed the subsequent base if they are still past that base at the time of the throw that ends up out of play. I am confused why you had to put the ball in play and force a pitcher to take his place and step off, you can do a verbal appeal. If a coach had this convo about appealing a missed base, all they had to do was say "we want to appeal the miss of 2nd base". And if the pitcher wants to appeal, why is he doing his leg lift like he is trying to catch a runner too far off the base? Why not just step off and toss over? None of what you said makes sense, except that you/they are correct that an appeal can be made for the missed base

 

[umpire16]

1) Your ruling was spot on. Both runners (R1 and batter-runner) had legally last obtained 1st base, and are awarded two bases, but since they can not occupy the same base, the lead runner is given 2 bases and the batter 1 base. You can't advance one 3 bases because he is forced to move up by batter being awarded 2, that would be a 3-base award so now you are punishing the defense for a "bad read" by R1.

2) A runner can not legally re-touch a base when they have passed the subsequent base if they are still past that base at the time of the throw that ends up out of play. I am confused why you had to put the ball in play and force a pitcher to take his place and step off, you can do a verbal appeal. If a coach had this convo about appealing a missed base, all they had to do was say "we want to appeal the miss of 2nd base". And if the pitcher wants to appeal, why is he doing his leg lift like he is trying to catch a runner too far off the base? Why not just step off and toss over? None of what you said makes sense, except that you/they are correct that an appeal can be made for the missed base

Let me clarify the order of this (was typing on my phone in OP): I didn't force the return to play. No one said anything as I'm standing there having just awarded third since the ball went out of play, and it seems like I was the only one who knew the base miss was still something to be appealed. There was no obvious action or statement after the award. I returned to the plate and gave the catcher a new ball. He throws it to the pitcher. I put the ball in play as the requirements were met. The second baseman then says, "Coach what do we do didn't he miss the base?" The head coach then says, "If the ball is back in play throw it to the base." To me, this was not an obvious verbal appeal.

At this point I am anticipating something was about to be screwed up. While this COULD be construed as a verbal appeal, I need something more along the lines of "I want to appeal he missed second base," or "we want to appeal he missed second." Then, in the action of the throw, the pitcher, while still legally attached to the rubber, begins a throw to first, and when realizing that is wrong, stops thus faking the throw and then steps towards home and stops again, then turning to second and throwing it there. Thus, the balk is the next play or action therefore negating a proper appeal opportunity, even though it is verbal.

 

[AllSports12]

Sort of what I thought. Person was watching it with said that if the runner did not attempt to get out of the way it should be a DP, and I disagreed. I figured it would ahve to be intentional to before it would be calle.d

Official Baseball Rules - 6.01(a)

(6) If, in the judgment of the umpire, a base runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead. The umpire shall call the runner out for interference and also call outthe batter-runner because of the action of his teammate.In no event may bases be run or runs scored because of such action by a runner;

 

[AllSports12]

Two good ones recently. Both playing NFHS rules.

1) R1, R2, one out. Laser to center field that was 50-50 chance for a catch. R2 takes off. R1 hesitates and reads (CF threw a guy out at second inning prior). BR is, honestly, the fastest kid I've ever seen. He rounds first and is ten feet towards second when CF one hops it and throws a little wide to home. At time of throw, BR and R1 are both in between first and second. Throw goes into deadball territory. I kill it and place the runners at second and third. Coach decides to argue we missed it because "you can't screw my runner for a good read. He would have had second on a clean hit. He should score." He didn't care about the rules explanation, so he found himself in the parking lot.

1) Your ruling was spot on. Both runners (R1 and batter-runner) had legally last obtained 1st base, and are awarded two bases, but since they can not occupy the same base, the lead runner is given 2 bases and the batter 1 base. You can't advance one 3 bases because he is forced to move up by batter being awarded 2, that would be a 3-base award so now you are punishing the defense for a "bad read" by R1.

Just to elaborate here.... unrelated to the original play

If two runners are between second and third base at the time of a throw that enters dead ball territory, then both runs score as the base award will not result in two runners occupying the same base.

 

[AllSports12]

Let me clarify the order of this (was typing on my phone in OP): I didn't force the return to play. No one said anything as I'm standing there having just awarded third since the ball went out of play, and it seems like I was the only one who knew the base miss was still something to be appealed. There was no obvious action or statement after the award. I returned to the plate and gave the catcher a new ball. He throws it to the pitcher. I put the ball in play as the requirements were met. The second baseman then says, "Coach what do we do didn't he miss the base?" The head coach then says, "If the ball is back in play throw it to the base." To me, this was not an obvious verbal appeal.

At this point I am anticipating something was about to be screwed up. While this COULD be construed as a verbal appeal, I need something more along the lines of "I want to appeal he missed second base," or "we want to appeal he missed second." Then, in the action of the throw, the pitcher, while still legally attached to the rubber, begins a throw to first, and when realizing that is wrong, stops thus faking the throw and then steps towards home and stops again, then turning to second and throwing it there. Thus, the balk is the next play or action therefore negating a proper appeal opportunity, even though it is verbal.

This type of situation is precisely why the coaches wanted the option of having a dead ball appeal and why the dead ball appeal was implemented back in 2003. Once you start hearing appeal discussion, kill the play and ask coach "what are you appealing?" If they don't respond, then let the chips fall where they may.

 

[AllSports12]

Wow, this is such an interesting situation. So the guy who first brought this up at dinner was correct but did not elaborate correctly, he had said the runner (R1) was not permitted to re-touch first bc it was a dead ball, ie, the defense saw the runner and purposely did it to get the third out, all he had to do was say runner was past (or on?) second base and he would be 100% correct.

trying to imagine coaching my outfielder this...guarantees out #3 if at second or beyond and realistically has a 50/50 chance of him not going back to first if umpires declare dead ball and award third base, he only need touch second on dead ball and he’s stuck

Was reviewing some comments and saw that I failed to reply to this one, which could cause some confusion.

There is an exception to the rule that allows the runner to retouch if the fielder "intentionally throws or carries the ball out of play in order to deny the runner the opportunity to retouch the base". Two bases are still awarded to the runner and he still is required to retouch the bases. The runner can still be put out on proper appeal. (8-3-3d)

Sorry about any confusion I may have caused by not responding. I just didn't see it.

 

[CoachHoversten]

So if he doe

Was reviewing some comments and saw that I failed to reply to this one, which could cause some confusion.

There is an exception to the rule that allows the runner to retouch if the fielder "intentionally throws or carries the ball out of play in order to deny the runner the opportunity to retouch the base". Two bases are still awarded to the runner and he still is required to retouch the bases. The runner can still be put out on proper appeal. (8-3-3d)

Sorry about any confusion I may have caused by not responding. I just didn't see it.

so if he is past second, he can go and retouch bc it was deemed intentional, but if he doesn’t, he can still be put out.

since the ball is dead, does he have to retouch in reverse order (2nd then 1st, then touch 2nd again on his way to 3rd), or can he cut across the diamond to retouch first?

I would assume the first one but on a foul ball where runners has passed second he doesn’t have to retouch second on his way back, so want to be sure

 

[AllSports12]

so if he is past second, he can go and retouch bc it was deemed intentional, but if he doesn’t, he can still be put out.

Correct

since the ball is dead, does he have to retouch in reverse order (2nd then 1st, then touch 2nd again on his way to 3rd), or can he cut across the diamond to retouch first?

Any retouching of the bases must be done legally. Rule 8-2-6(l) that allows a runner to rectify a missed base by touching it "the last time by".
Last Time By
If a runner correctly touches a base that was missed (either in advancing or returning), the last time he was by the base, that last touch corrects any previous base running infraction

I would assume the first one but on a foul ball where runners has passed second he doesn’t have to retouch second on his way back, so want to be sure

No retouch or retouch in order is required on a foul ball.

 

[Yappi]

Not sure if this was asked before but couldn't find it.

Offensive coach takes a timeout to talk to his batter. Can the defensive coach meet with his defense (and pitcher) during this timeout without being charged a visit to the mound?

Assume the defensive coach gets off the field before the offensive coach ends their discussion with their batter.

 

[AllSports12]

Not sure if this was asked before but couldn't find it.

Offensive coach takes a timeout to talk to his batter. Can the defensive coach meet with his defense (and pitcher) during this timeout without being charged a visit to the mound?

Assume the defensive coach gets off the field before the offensive coach ends their discussion with their batter.

The only way the defense would be charged with a conference is if he in any way delays the game after the offensive conference ended.

Ending his conference a few seconds after the offensive coach ends his isn't delaying the game

 

[Thavoice]

The only way the defense would be charged with a conference is if he in any way delays the game after the offensive conference ended.

Ending his conference a few seconds after the offensive coach ends his isn't delaying the game

Do you see many coaches call offensive conferences, with the batter and baserunners?
I saw a coach do it twice in one game a few weeks ago, but I am certain he was playing the slow down game for those stupid time limits he changed pitchers with two outs in an inning three times, twice when there was no one one!
/
That brings up another topic, for this stupid time limits, could an umpire warn a coach for slowdowns like this?

Thing is, the coach didnt need to, they were by far the better team. Just was....frustrating.......

 

[AllSports12]

Do you see many coaches call offensive conferences, with the batter and baserunners?
I saw a coach do it twice in one game a few weeks ago, but I am certain he was playing the slow down game for those stupid time limits he changed pitchers with two outs in an inning three times, twice when there was no one one!
/
That brings up another topic, for this stupid time limits, could an umpire warn a coach for slowdowns like this?

Thing is, the coach didnt need to, they were by far the better team. Just was....frustrating.......

It has been rare for a coach to request an offensive conference.

I never worked time limit games, for the reason you listed. Not worth the hassle of coaches taking advantage of a special rule.

 

[Thavoice]

It has been rare for a coach to request an offensive conference.

I never worked time limit games, for the reason you listed. Not worth the hassle of coaches taking advantage of a special rule.

THanks.

Yeah, I dont ever recall seeing the coach call a conference with the baserunners and batter. Only time i see it is when their is a pitching change.
Just was bush league if you ask me, and as I said, it was not needed as that team was head and shoulders above the other!