Ask The Ump?

[AllSports12]

And to boot....the HP uno called it......


So when do say pitcher is committed to delivery, would say that starts when the pitcher begins his motion to pitch or just getting a signal?

- For the windup position, the "time of the pitch" occurs when the pitcher, (a) first starts any movement of his arm(s) or leg(s) after stepping onto the pitcher's plate with his hands already together in front of his body; (b) with both hands at his side, first starts any movement with both arms or leg(s) prior to the pitch; (c) with either hand in front of the body and the other hand at his side, after bringing his hands together, first starts any movement of his arm(s) or leg(s) prior to the pitch.

- For the set position, the "time of the pitch" occurs the instant the pitcher, after coming to a complete and discernible stop, starts any movement with arm(s) and/or leg(s) that commits him to pitch.

This was called very early, when the pitcher was getting the sign.

Good Lord, this is someone who thinks he knows the rule book, but makes stuff up instead. Simply taking a signal does not constitute the start of a pitch.

Very frustrating to read this.

 

[AllSports12]

Thanks for the


Thanks for the info. regarding the responses:

1) good information, so I was mostly correct in that I made the call. But I asked for help on my own bc I got straight-lined. The head coach came to argue and before he could say one thing I said “coach, I’ve got an out on the timing and I’m getting help on the foot” and he never complained. But it’s worth mentioning that this happened in a very competitive game (ended up 3-2 after 9 innings) AND was the game where the F3 who played 60 ft behind the bag was in the field, so being in position to not need help and take that read step bc of the throw just wasn’t really possible. I was unsure of foot and wanted to get the right call but I was sure that if he did hold it, the timing of the play was an out.

2) cloverleaf HS is the field if anyone has ever played or umpired there is where the grass is recessed so far back. So again, we are “supposed to be” 12-15 ft back, and “supposed to be” a step or two behind F3, so I was 55-60 ft from bag instead of 12-15.

Like I noted, it's not good (or recommended) to ask for help on your own. If you immediately go for help after making the call or without making a call and your partner is daydreaming or had to check another runner, then you have your partner standing there with a dumb look on his face saying... "I dunno"......

I have no problem with going for help if the coach asks.... only in rare cases (see "own it") In your case with this field set up, it makes sense.

As far as the field set up..... like I said, it has the makings for a long day for U2. Do what you can do in those situations.

 

[AllSports12]

A question to all umpires-I umpired for a decade or so, mostly travel ball as I was coaching HS ball, but my question was in regard to the framing of pitches that's discussed in recent times. As an umpire I called the pitch as it crossed the plate/batter, the framing of how it was caught never entered into the situation. I never took an umpiring instruction class and actually as I recall wasn't even sanctioned as this was in the 80's to early 90's and just knew the assigners. How does one call the correct ball/strike?

The value of framing is something that announcers like to talk about....... because they need to talk about something. To a good umpire it means nothing with regards to the pitch. If tracked properly, (hand to glove) it's irrelevant. If the end location of the glove had any merit, it would state as such in the rule.

Now catchers can influence the outcome for some umpires. Some are good at it, and most aren't. When I have a catcher moving the glove on "close" pitches I'll tell him, "hold it, don't move it..... moving it tells me that you didn't think it was a strike either".

Sounds like you were calling pitches correctly

 

[Thavoice]

- For the windup position, the "time of the pitch" occurs when the pitcher, (a) first starts any movement of his arm(s) or leg(s) after stepping onto the pitcher's plate with his hands already together in front of his body; (b) with both hands at his side, first starts any movement with both arms or leg(s) prior to the pitch; (c) with either hand in front of the body and the other hand at his side, after bringing his hands together, first starts any movement of his arm(s) or leg(s) prior to the pitch.

- For the set position, the "time of the pitch" occurs the instant the pitcher, after coming to a complete and discernible stop, starts any movement with arm(s) and/or leg(s) that commits him to pitch.





Good Lord, this is someone who thinks he knows the rule book, but makes stuff up instead. Simply taking a signal does not constitute the start of a pitch.

Very frustrating to read this.

Gear info.
I can tell a lot about an ump.by his simple mechanics and yeah, you could tell he was not that good. Sporadic zone which I contributed to the large margin in the game.

I had never seen it called before, and now I know why!

Thanks

 

[GCPRO]

Allsports12-thank you! As a coach I go to clinics and listen to college and pro coaches speak on catcher instruction and spending valuable practice time on the art of framing pitches and always think to myself I never called balls/strikes by catcher receiving the ball. Why waste that time. Have a son that caught his entire life and we discussed it often. Good Info!

 

[Thavoice]

In terms of framing, especially in HS and below, I feel how a catcher receives the pitch is important.

I think you see just as many strikes getting called a ball by very poor receiving techniques as you do the other way around.

I know umpires state they call it by how it crosses the plate, and y'all do, but there are times, both ways, that how he receives the pitch effects the call.


Now onto games today. Wonder what will possibly make the message board to discuss later!

 

[AllSports12]

Allsports12-thank you! As a coach I go to clinics and listen to college and pro coaches speak on catcher instruction and spending valuable practice time on the art of framing pitches and always think to myself I never called balls/strikes by catcher receiving the ball. Why waste that time. Have a son that caught his entire life and we discussed it often. Good Info!

A good catcher, one who know how to receive a pitch, can grab a borderline pitch or two during a game. (we aren't perfect)

And don't thank me.... thank Yappi.... he's the one who has set this forum up.

 

[AllSports12]

Now onto games today. Wonder what will possibly make the message board to discuss later!

Pitcher must take signs from rubber
Voluntary release is mandatory for a catch
Bad throw from F6 that takes F3 into the batter runner before he gets to the bag is a train wreck.....

or other myths

Have a great set today.

 

[theterribletowel]

I'll ask the first one that I was stumped with by an umpire.

Man on second base, ball is hit to the third baseman. Runner from second takes off towards 3rd base. Realizes that he is going to be tagged out and goes out of the baseline. Third baseman reaches back to tag him but misses by several feet as the runner went around him. Third baseman throws to first late and the runner going to first is safe.

In our opinion, this was a clear running out of the baseline violation. Our 3rd baseman had the ball in the base path and the runner simply ran a circle around him. He left the baseline by nearly 12 feet which was the only reason the tag was unable to be applied.

The umpire explained that it wasn't a violation because the fielder didn't make enough of an effort to chase him down. Once he missed with the tag and threw to first, the runner going to 3rd was safe. If he hadn't thrown to first, then he would have called him out.

Was this correctly called? I've looked through rulebooks and never found anything like it.

You get three feet on each side once you determine your path to the base

 

[Thavoice]

Ball hit to the OF fence. OF signals the ball went under the fence. Runner was on first.

I know the end game is the runner on 3rd and batter on second, but what do you do as an umpire when this happens?

Do you verify? Do you immediately stop the lead runner at third or allow him to keep going and hen move them back if it really did go under?

What do you all do?

 

[Thavoice]

Pitcher must take signs from rubber
Voluntary release is mandatory for a catch
Bad throw from F6 that takes F3 into the batter runner before he gets to the bag is a train wreck.....

or other myths

Have a great set today.

Had the ole balk call by fans, and coaches when a runner on second broke for third an the pitcher threw to third....

 

[bucksman]

Ball hit to the OF fence. OF signals the ball went under the fence. Runner was on first.

I know the end game is the runner on 3rd and batter on second, but what do you do as an umpire when this happens?

Do you verify? Do you immediately stop the lead runner at third or allow him to keep going and hen move them back if it really did go under?

What do you all do?

I hate to give the answer, "it depends", but it really does.

Normally in a pregame on an enclosed field, whether it's full or partial (i.e. an outfield fence but possibility for ball to hit fair then kick out of play pass a fence extended line), I always tell the teams "hands up, don't dig". That covers everything: ball stuck in fencing (or screen), ball goes under/through fencing, ball hits in the field of play and goes over fencing, ball hits fair and kicks past a fence line. If there's digging or chasing, we as umpires have to assume the ball is still in play and/or the outfielder put it out of play.

In terms of "verification", sometimes it's obvious visually and other times an umpire may have to go out a bit to check it out. That being said, I would rather have live action continue a bit long unnecessarily than to "kill" the live action just to find out something else truly happened (i.e. the ball was still in play, an outfielder put it out of play, etc.). It is easier to put runners back where they should be then to move them forward based on a subjective judgement of where they would have ended up.

 

[Thavoice]

I hate to give the answer, "it depends", but it really does.

Normally in a pregame on an enclosed field, whether it's full or partial (i.e. an outfield fence but possibility for ball to hit fair then kick out of play pass a fence extended line), I always tell the teams "hands up, don't dig". That covers everything: ball stuck in fencing (or screen), ball goes under/through fencing, ball hits in the field of play and goes over fencing, ball hits fair and kicks past a fence line. If there's digging or chasing, we as umpires have to assume the ball is still in play and/or the outfielder put it out of play.

In terms of "verification", sometimes it's obvious visually and other times an umpire may have to go out a bit to check it out. That being said, I would rather have live action continue a bit long unnecessarily than to "kill" the live action just to find out something else truly happened (i.e. the ball was still in play, an outfielder put it out of play, etc.). It is easier to put runners back where they should be then to move them forward based on a subjective judgement of where they would have ended up.

Concur.
This situation, it was not obvious, and umpire stopped the runners immediately when to e CF out his hands up and never did even attempt to check.
Doubt the kid was lying, but still.

And yesz we would always have the runner contrinue to home unless it was obvious as well.

 

[Thavoice]

I am all for umpires getting together to get a call right, I really am.

But please, make a call first. Twice on Sunday an umpire, the same one, did not make any call at all (on a fly ball, and a play at first) and just let it go on until it was over and then conferred with the other and then they made a call.

Just did not make sense, and to be honest, they were basic plays.

but anyways.....
1 weekend in the books and I learned a new thing on here about that illegal pitch, or as the ump said, a 'fielders balk'

 

[Peak]

We had a play yesterday where runners on 1st and 2nd. Batter hits a high popup between 1st and 2nd base. Clearly INF Fly Rule - but nothing was called. The player let the ball drop to the ground without catching. Our runners advance. 2B picks up the ball and throws it to first to get the batter out at first. Coaches are yelling at the boys to throw the ball to 2B for a double play. Chaos ensues as no one knows whats going on. Finally, both umps get together and talk and call is made. INF Fly Rule enforced, runner that advanced to 2B is out as 1B had the ball and tagged the base.

Was this the right call? The fielding team liked it, but obviously the visiting team coaches were hot that the INF Fly rule wasn't called appropriately, causing the runners to move as if it were a normal play.

14u teams involved, so I'd say they should know better, but coaches have to complain to avoid an inning over double play.

 

[Bugsy8875]

We had a play yesterday where runners on 1st and 2nd. Batter hits a high popup between 1st and 2nd base. Clearly INF Fly Rule - but nothing was called. The player let the ball drop to the ground without catching. Our runners advance. 2B picks up the ball and throws it to first to get the batter out at first. Coaches are yelling at the boys to throw the ball to 2B for a double play. Chaos ensues as no one knows whats going on. Finally, both umps get together and talk and call is made. INF Fly Rule enforced, runner that advanced to 2B is out as 1B had the ball and tagged the base.

Was this the right call? The fielding team liked it, but obviously the visiting team coaches were hot that the INF Fly rule wasn't called appropriately, causing the runners to move as if it were a normal play.

14u teams involved, so I'd say they should know better, but coaches have to complain to avoid an inning over double play.

If I am reading this correctly, the runner that advanced to 2B should be safe if the ball was not caught and he got to the base safely.

 

[CoachHoversten]

We had a play yesterday where runners on 1st and 2nd. Batter hits a high popup between 1st and 2nd base. Clearly INF Fly Rule - but nothing was called. The player let the ball drop to the ground without catching. Our runners advance. 2B picks up the ball and throws it to first to get the batter out at first. Coaches are yelling at the boys to throw the ball to 2B for a double play. Chaos ensues as no one knows whats going on. Finally, both umps get together and talk and call is made. INF Fly Rule enforced, runner that advanced to 2B is out as 1B had the ball and tagged the base.

Was this the right call? The fielding team liked it, but obviously the visiting team coaches were hot that the INF Fly rule wasn't called appropriately, causing the runners to move as if it were a normal play.

14u teams involved, so I'd say they should know better, but coaches have to complain to avoid an inning over double play.

As the first person to reply said, your description isn’t very clear what happened with the runners. If the second baseman let it drop on purpose, he had an easy play at 2nd, so why did he throw to first?

But I digress and here is my input:

1) Infield fly is in effect whether it’s announced or not. So while they looked silly by not calling it, maybe each thinking the other would call it, the batter is still out, and not bc they threw to 1st, even if they booted the ball around the infield the batter is still out.

2) IFF is still a live ball and runners can advance at their own risk. If the runners on 1B and 2B both successfully achieved the next base, they should be safe there. What you described sounds like the umps treated it like a tag-up situation, which it is not since the call was not caught.

if I had to guess, and I am guessing, kids were coached up that in IFF if it isn’t called, let it drop and try to get cheap outs in the confusion. Runners and base coaches Should know it’s IFF but everyone panics when they see the ball hit the ground.

can I ask a basic question? Did you see the umps give each other a signal before the pitch indicating they knew it was IFF? Usually it is indicated with hand or fingers to the bill of hat

chances are the umps botched the situation, didn’t realize it was IFF, and got as confused by the chaos as everyone else

 

[Thavoice]

At the lower levels the IFF can be a bit confusing as often times the ball is hit in that in between stage.

 

[CoachHoversten]

So a couple situations I had happen this weekend as an umpire...I "know" I got it right, but might be good info for others, and if I am wrong, I would want to know I am wrong so I can learn too...

1) Speaking of IFF, had a situation this weekend where I was on the bases, bases were loaded, infield was in on the cut of the grass as runner on third was either tying or go-ahead run (can't recall which). Lazy pop up to 2nd base, close to where a "normal" F4 would be positioned (when not playing in). I signaled and called IFF, even though the F4 played the ball horribly, got all twisted around, and missed the catch. Runner from 3rd advanced and scored anyways. My partner, who is a college ump, told me later I was wrong and that was not IFF because it was not "ordinary effort". I politely told him the effort did not matter (it SHOULD have been routine, even playing in) and that only applied to balls in the outfield and he said I was incorrect again.

2) I had my first umpire's interference of my career, I was on the plate, runner on 1B takes off on steal attempt, got a huge jump, catcher practically knocked my mask off when rearing back to throw. I let it play out and as soon as I saw the ball bouncing, I called time and sent the runner back to first. Coach of the team batting questioned it, saying "catcher never would have gotten him out" and I said unfortunately it does not matter, I interfered with his throw and the rule says the defense can take the result of the play (if he was out anyways) or runner goes back. In my defense, the catcher was set up very far back from the batters box, way further than need be, and I think because of that, I just wasn't thinking as I usually take a step back when runners are on, but b/c I was already far back, I was closer than should be.

One Question I have (though I think I know the answer)

1) In one of my games, a kid hit a walk-off grand slam with 2 outs in the bottom of the 7th to win by 1. I found out later that the previous day the same kid had hit a home run and missed 3B, and was out on appeal. Got me thinking....what if R1 had missed 3rd on the grand slam and was called out on appeal, for the third out. Now he is out AND the batter does not score right? Since he was following and not preceding the timing play out....so his team would lose by 1 instead of winning by 1?

 

[Thavoice]

So a couple situations I had happen this weekend as an umpire...I "know" I got it right, but might be good info for others, and if I am wrong, I would want to know I am wrong so I can learn too...

1) Speaking of IFF, had a situation this weekend where I was on the bases, bases were loaded, infield was in on the cut of the grass as runner on third was either tying or go-ahead run (can't recall which). Lazy pop up to 2nd base, close to where a "normal" F4 would be positioned (when not playing in). I signaled and called IFF, even though the F4 played the ball horribly, got all twisted around, and missed the catch. Runner from 3rd advanced and scored anyways. My partner, who is a college ump, told me later I was wrong and that was not IFF because it was not "ordinary effort". I politely told him the effort did not matter (it SHOULD have been routine, even playing in) and that only applied to balls in the outfield and he said I was incorrect again.

2) I had my first umpire's interference of my career, I was on the plate, runner on 1B takes off on steal attempt, got a huge jump, catcher practically knocked my mask off when rearing back to throw. I let it play out and as soon as I saw the ball bouncing, I called time and sent the runner back to first. Coach of the team batting questioned it, saying "catcher never would have gotten him out" and I said unfortunately it does not matter, I interfered with his throw and the rule says the defense can take the result of the play (if he was out anyways) or runner goes back. In my defense, the catcher was set up very far back from the batters box, way further than need be, and I think because of that, I just wasn't thinking as I usually take a step back when runners are on, but b/c I was already far back, I was closer than should be.

One Question I have (though I think I know the answer)

1) In one of my games, a kid hit a walk-off grand slam with 2 outs in the bottom of the 7th to win by 1. I found out later that the previous day the same kid had hit a home run and missed 3B, and was out on appeal. Got me thinking....what if R1 had missed 3rd on the grand slam and was called out on appeal, for the third out. Now he is out AND the batter does not score right? Since he was following and not preceding the timing play out....so his team would lose by 1 instead of winning by 1?

Following.
Mr. Allsports: When you answer his question, can you also answer something that is similiar (I think)
How about on an appeal on a tag up play for a third out and how it pertains to any runs scored.
Example: 1 out. 2nd and 3rd runners.
Runner on third scores on a tag up play. Runner on second goes to second, but on an appeal he is out for not tagging up.

Run count?
I remember this from years ago but do not remember.

 

[CoachHoversten]

Following.
Mr. Allsports: When you answer his question, can you also answer something that is similiar (I think)
How about on an appeal on a tag up play for a third out and how it pertains to any runs scored.
Example: 1 out. 2nd and 3rd runners.
Runner on third scores on a tag up play. Runner on second goes to second, but on an appeal he is out for not tagging up.

Run count?
I remember this from years ago but do not remember.

I’m 99% sure that since the out is a timing play, that all runs scoring in FRONT of the appealed out still count, but think any behind it don’t, hence my question about the grand slam where R1 misses bag for third out.

but I’ll defer to the expert

 

[Thavoice]

I’m 99% sure that since the out is a timing play, that all runs scoring in FRONT of the appealed out still count, but think any behind it don’t, hence my question about the grand slam where R1 misses bag for third out.

but I’ll defer to the expert

My thought as well, on both accounts.

 

[AllSports12]

As the first person to reply said, your description isn’t very clear what happened with the runners. If the second baseman let it drop on purpose, he had an easy play at 2nd, so why did he throw to first?

But I digress and here is my input:

1) Infield fly is in effect whether it’s announced or not. So while they looked silly by not calling it, maybe each thinking the other would call it, the batter is still out, and not bc they threw to 1st, even if they booted the ball around the infield the batter is still out.

2) IFF is still a live ball and runners can advance at their own risk. If the runners on 1B and 2B both successfully achieved the next base, they should be safe there. What you described sounds like the umps treated it like a tag-up situation, which it is not since the call was not caught.

if I had to guess, and I am guessing, kids were coached up that in IFF if it isn’t called, let it drop and try to get cheap outs in the confusion. Runners and base coaches Should know it’s IFF but everyone panics when they see the ball hit the ground.

can I ask a basic question? Did you see the umps give each other a signal before the pitch indicating they knew it was IFF? Usually it is indicated with hand or fingers to the bill of hat

chances are the umps botched the situation, didn’t realize it was IFF, and got as confused by the chaos as everyone else

It's important to remember that on the IFF that is permitted to drop to the ground........

1) It's a live ball (noted prior)
2) The Batter-Runner is out by rule, regardless of whether or not the umpires verbally or non verbally declared an IFF
3) The runners may advance at their own risk
4) Runners advancing must be put out via a tag as the out on the Batter-Runner negates a force out.

 

[Thavoice]

W

It's important to remember that on the IFF that is permitted to drop to the ground........

1) It's a live ball (noted prior)
2) The Batter-Runner is out by rule, regardless of whether or not the umpires verbally or non verbally declared an IFF
3) The runners may advance at their own risk
4) Runners advancing must be put out via a tag as the out on the Batter-Runner negates a force out.

What if they dont verbally, or signal it, and decide it after the play like the example?

 

[AllSports12]

So a couple situations I had happen this weekend as an umpire...I "know" I got it right, but might be good info for others, and if I am wrong, I would want to know I am wrong so I can learn too...

1) Speaking of IFF, had a situation this weekend where I was on the bases, bases were loaded, infield was in on the cut of the grass as runner on third was either tying or go-ahead run (can't recall which). Lazy pop up to 2nd base, close to where a "normal" F4 would be positioned (when not playing in). I signaled and called IFF, even though the F4 played the ball horribly, got all twisted around, and missed the catch. Runner from 3rd advanced and scored anyways. My partner, who is a college ump, told me later I was wrong and that was not IFF because it was not "ordinary effort". I politely told him the effort did not matter (it SHOULD have been routine, even playing in) and that only applied to balls in the outfield and he said I was incorrect again.

Your ruling is correct based on the bolded red part of your post.

The purpose of the rule is to protect the offense from a cheap double or triple play. The rule does not mention that the ball must be caught with ordinary effort.

"An infield fly is a fair fly (not including a line drive nor an attempted bunt) which can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort,"

Your college partner need some basic training.

One Question I have (though I think I know the answer)

1) In one of my games, a kid hit a walk-off grand slam with 2 outs in the bottom of the 7th to win by 1. I found out later that the previous day the same kid had hit a home run and missed 3B, and was out on appeal. Got me thinking....what if R1 had missed 3rd on the grand slam and was called out on appeal, for the third out. Now he is out AND the batter does not score right? Since he was following and not preceding the timing play out....so his team would lose by 1 instead of winning by 1?

You are correct here as well

 

[AllSports12]

W
What if they dont verbally, or signal it, and decide it after the play like the example?

Then they apply the rule accordingly. Batter Runner is out any any runner that successfully advanced is left at the base they advanced to. (remember, the force play is not applicable here)

This is a NFHS Rule. While the IFF should be declared, it is on the teams to know the situation as well.

Case Book Play 7.4.1 SITUATION G:

With R2 on second and R1 on first and one out, B4 hits a high fly to second base which could have been caught by F4. Neither umpire declares "infield fly." F4 unintentionally drops the ball but picks it up and tags R2 who is off the base.

RULING:

The half-inning is over as R2's out is the third out. The infield fly out for the second out holds even though it was not declared. The situation determines the out, not the declaration. The umpires should always declare "Infield Fly, If Fair" to lessen any confusion.

 

[Thavoice]

HWe're is my issue with that. There are times it is questionable at best if it should be, or will be called. To a lesser extent at the higher level but for 13-15yr okds there are enough in between that is up for interpretation

Then they apply the rule accordingly. Batter Runner is out any any runner that successfully advanced is left at the base they advanced to. (remember, the force play is not applicable here)

This is a NFHS Rule. While the IFF should be declared, it is on the teams to know the situation as well.

Case Book Play 7.4.1 SITUATION G:

With R2 on second and R1 on first and one out, B4 hits a high fly to second base which could have been caught by F4. Neither umpire declares "infield fly." F4 unintentionally drops the ball but picks it up and tags R2 who is off the base.

RULING:

The half-inning is over as R2's out is the third out. The infield fly out for the second out holds even though it was not declared. The situation determines the out, not the declaration. The umpires should always declare "Infield Fly, If Fair" to lessen any confusion.

 

[CoachHoversten]

@thavoice, I agree that at higher levels, there is no excuse for an umpire “forgetting” to call infield fly, but it happens prob a lot. I called it this wknd a few times and EVERY time the coaches said “good call” and/or “thanks blue”, indicating to me that there are times it isn’t called.

an umpire should never have to worry about judging “in between” balls, if the ball is over the infield, it’s automatic, if the ball is over the grass, if the IF can get it by just backing up a few steps or to the side, it’s IFF, if they have to turn their back and go after it, it isnt

 

[Thavoice]

@thavoice, I agree that at higher levels, there is no excuse for an umpire “forgetting” to call infield fly, but it happens prob a lot. I called it this wknd a few times and EVERY time the coaches said “good call” and/or “thanks blue”, indicating to me that there are times it isn’t called.

an umpire should never have to worry about judging “in between” balls, if the ball is over the infield, it’s automatic, if the ball is over the grass, if the IF can get it by just backing up a few steps or to the side, it’s IFF, if they have to turn their back and go after it, it isnt
[/QUOTE

I'm more talking about the shorter, lowered INF pops that are questionavle if kids are going to get to it. I've seen I called, not called, then called after the action and conferring with the other

 

[CoachHoversten]

I knew there was another weird situation that I forgot to mention. Runners on 1st and 2nd, I am in C position. Batter has a 2-2 count and literally fouls off 7 or 8 pitches in a row, loooong at bat. Next pitch is in the dirt, batter tosses bat and starts going to 1st, so runners start trotting you 2nd and 3rd, HPU immediately informs batter that’s ball 3, so he is returning to plate now. Runners already acquired 2nd and 3rd and are yelled at to get back by coach (no idea why)

so catcher throws down to 3rd and they get R2 in a rundown between 2nd and 3rd and he is tagged out.

coach wanted me to put them back at 1st and 2nd bc they “thought it was ball 4”. Told him it’s just a live ball situation and they could have stayed at 2nd and 3rd bc catcher didn’t know it was ball 3 and didn’t throw down when they jogged to the next base.

so basically everyone was unaware of count and any one of them could have taken advantage of that, but no one was, and so an out was recorded in the chaos of thinking they had to go back