Two 10-0 Teams To Miss OHSAA HS Football Playoffs

tom_hsfootball_fan said:
Allow me to ask a question that I have been pondering for four decades.

What is so special about an undefeated season?

We usually get caught up in the "absoluteness" of the zero in the loss column... 3-0, 10-0, 15-0. But that number by itself, representing the void, is totally meaningless. It is not a measure of accomplishment when standing alone. A high school team playing 3rd graders will go successfully undefeated but accomplish nothing.

What we have currently in this state is a system that as closely as possible measures accomplishment rather than just mere success. And isn't that what we want? This wrangling over an undefeated team not making the playoffs is misplaced. If we are to make any changes, those changes should reflect accomplishment in meaningful competition and not just be a victory counter.

Yes, there will always be the chance that a team is victimized by its schedule and the failure of its opponents to garner enough wins to push them over the line into the playoffs. But no system is perfect and no system is totally just. We have to go with the best we can create that reflects those principles that we try to adhere to. That's what we have and that's why we should leave it alone.
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Maybe we should stop keeping score as well?
 
A team can go undefeated playing a horrible schedule and go deep in the playoffs. Let's consider Athens in 2014.

Since 2008, possibly no team in Ohio has consistently played as bad a schedule as Athens. That was when they joined the Tri-Valley Ohio Division and began playing a bunch of schools who are much smaller than they are. This after over 40 years in the SEOAL--which was a much more appropriate conference for them. I don't know why the TVC even let them in.

Anyway, here is what they did in 2014. You can see how bad their schedule was. Eight schools are from a lower division. They got to the state finals anyway:


8/29 H Gallia Academy (4-6) [4:14] W 52-0
9/5 A Zanesville (5-5) [2:5] W 66-28
9/12 H Warren (1-9) [4:13] W 69-6
9/19 A Alexander (5-5) [5:17] W 55-9
9/26 H Vinton County (2-8) [3:9] W 61-14
10/3 A Steubenville (10-4) [4:13] W 58-42
10/10 A Meigs (5-5) [4:14] W 49-0
10/17 H Wellston (3-7) [5:17] W 82-7
10/24 H River Valley (5-5) [5:17] W 77-14
10/31 A Nelsonville-York (7-4) [6:21] W 48-22
11/7 H # Granville (8-3) [3:9] W 65-14
11/14 N # Tri-Valley (11-1) [3:9] W 41-20
11/21 N # Columbus St Francis DeSales (10-3) [3:9] W 52-20
11/28 N # St Vincent-St Mary (11-3) [3:7] W 34-31
12/4 N # Central Catholic (13-2) [3:8] L 52-56
 
algernonsidney said:
A team can go undefeated playing a horrible schedule and go deep in the playoffs. Let's consider Athens in 2014.

Since 2008, possibly no team in Ohio has consistently played as bad a schedule as Athens. That was when they joined the Tri-Valley Ohio Division and began playing a bunch of schools who are much smaller than they are. This after over 40 years in the SEOAL--which was a much more appropriate conference for them. I don't know why the TVC even let them in.

Anyway, here is what they did in 2014. You can see how bad their schedule was. Eight schools are from a lower division. They got to the state finals anyway:


8/29 H Gallia Academy (4-6) [4:14] W 52-0
9/5 A Zanesville (5-5) [2:5] W 66-28
9/12 H Warren (1-9) [4:13] W 69-6
9/19 A Alexander (5-5) [5:17] W 55-9
9/26 H Vinton County (2-8) [3:9] W 61-14
10/3 A Steubenville (10-4) [4:13] W 58-42
10/10 A Meigs (5-5) [4:14] W 49-0
10/17 H Wellston (3-7) [5:17] W 82-7
10/24 H River Valley (5-5) [5:17] W 77-14
10/31 A Nelsonville-York (7-4) [6:21] W 48-22
11/7 H # Granville (8-3) [3:9] W 65-14
11/14 N # Tri-Valley (11-1) [3:9] W 41-20
11/21 N # Columbus St Francis DeSales (10-3) [3:9] W 52-20
11/28 N # St Vincent-St Mary (11-3) [3:7] W 34-31
12/4 N # Central Catholic (13-2) [3:8] L 52-56
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Of course they CAN. And of course Athens MADE the playoffs under the current situation.

I laid out a bunch of proof that both Northwood and Gibsonburg have consistently made the playoffs in recent years (Northwood over a decade) only to be bounced in the first round. Many times in bad fashion.

Up your OOC schedule and the problem goes away.
 
tough situation overall but the common denominator for both teams was Woodmore, travel wise it is a good game for both schools. Woodmore had a few decent teams in the early/mid 2000's but I doubt they have had a winning season since that time either. You gotta factor that in to the league schedule you know you have to face. The Toledo City league is always begging for games as they have to fill 5 non-con, almost any city league team this year would have been a good match up for either team.
 
falguin said:
Not upset about this. I remember when the playoffs only took two teams and then four teams. There so many great teams that played really tough schedules and did not get in because only two or four teams made it. One year Fitch had wins over Mooney, Harding, Western Reserve, Akron Garfield, Youngstown South, and Niles. All teams that had over six wins, some had eight. But we lost to Ursuline and because of the region we were in, we didn't get in. That was in '83, and we had the talent to win it all. There was nothing that could be done. Today there are eight teams from each region that make the playoffs. If you can't get it with ten wins, you really played a schedule that is too easy. I know one of the regions is loaded, but those teams in front of them play killer schedules. If you want to guarantee a playoff appearance. play a tougher schedule. If you can't, take pride in the fact that you were able to go 10 and 0. That in itself is a great accomplishment.
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I remember that season well. What really sucked was that Ursuline was week 10 at YSU in the snow. We had almost 500 yards of offense, but fumbled 3 times inside the 10 yard line. Lost a close game that would have made us 10-0. The old SVC, every week was a battle of good teams.
 
irish_buffalo said:
Of course they CAN. And of course Athens MADE the playoffs under the current situation.

I laid out a bunch of proof that both Northwood and Gibsonburg have consistently made the playoffs in recent years (Northwood over a decade) only to be bounced in the first round. Many times in bad fashion.

Up your OOC schedule and the problem goes away.
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You are so right. Let's add a team's last few years into the playoff system. If a team was 0-10 last year, they don't deserve to be in the playoffs this year. It doesn't matter what they do this year. Last year disqualifies them.
 
algernonsidney said:
You are so right. Let's add a team's last few years into the playoff system. If a team was 0-10 last year, they don't deserve to be in the playoffs this year. It doesn't matter what they do this year. Last year disqualifies them.
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No, they just have to make the playoffs under the certain system.

You cited a team that made the playoffs and went all the way to the finals. Kudos.

I cited Northwood's and Gibsonburg's track record where they have routinely been bounced in the first round and in bad fashion.
 
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algernonsidney said:
A team can go undefeated playing a horrible schedule and go deep in the playoffs. Let's consider Athens in 2014.
...
Anyway, here is what they did in 2014. You can see how bad their schedule was. Eight schools are from a lower division. They got to the state finals anyway:
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A "bad schedule" should not primarily measured by what divisions the opponents are in (unless it is extreme). It is the *number of total wins* of the opponents. The undefeated schools that got excluded this year were in the mid-30s. Athens in 2014, as you can see from above, was 47.

If a team goes undefeated against ten 3-7 teams, they probably don't get in; ten 4-6 teams, the might make it; but, ten 5-5 teams and there's almost no way they don't get a spot. This is (nearly) regardless of the divisions of the opponents.

There are seeming exceptions, of course. D3 Glenville this year made the playoffs at 7-3 without beating a single team with a winning record. They played 3 D1 to start and lost them all. Since then, they've allowed 6 points against 7 D2-3-4 opponents with a win total of 22. But, the general principle is higher opponent win totals lead to better opportunity to make the playoffs.

Tigers_Wrestling said:
Probably wouldn't have mattered what their schedule was with a kid like that under center.
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Burrow was not the talent then that everyone gave him credit for. Everything he is now he has developed since high school. He had two extremely tall wide receivers who out ran and outjumped everyone they played against. The catch radius for Burrow was about the size of a garage door... and he used it all. When Burrow graduated, I told my son that JB would never start a game at OSU. What you see now, with him being one of the most dominant forces on the college field today, is the result of a meteoric rise in development over a very short period.
 
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algernonsidney said:
A team can go undefeated playing a horrible schedule and go deep in the playoffs. Let's consider Athens in 2014.

Since 2008, possibly no team in Ohio has consistently played as bad a schedule as Athens. That was when they joined the Tri-Valley Ohio Division and began playing a bunch of schools who are much smaller than they are. This after over 40 years in the SEOAL--which was a much more appropriate conference for them. I don't know why the TVC even let them in.

Anyway, here is what they did in 2014. You can see how bad their schedule was. Eight schools are from a lower division. They got to the state finals anyway:


8/29 H Gallia Academy (4-6) [4:14] W 52-0
9/5 A Zanesville (5-5) [2:5] W 66-28
9/12 H Warren (1-9) [4:13] W 69-6
9/19 A Alexander (5-5) [5:17] W 55-9
9/26 H Vinton County (2-8) [3:9] W 61-14
10/3 A Steubenville (10-4) [4:13] W 58-42
10/10 A Meigs (5-5) [4:14] W 49-0
10/17 H Wellston (3-7) [5:17] W 82-7
10/24 H River Valley (5-5) [5:17] W 77-14
10/31 A Nelsonville-York (7-4) [6:21] W 48-22
11/7 H # Granville (8-3) [3:9] W 65-14
11/14 N # Tri-Valley (11-1) [3:9] W 41-20
11/21 N # Columbus St Francis DeSales (10-3) [3:9] W 52-20
11/28 N # St Vincent-St Mary (11-3) [3:7] W 34-31
12/4 N # Central Catholic (13-2) [3:8] L 52-56
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I see Steubenville and Zanesville in their non-league. It’s as if they knew they had several D1 talents, including a future Power 5 quarterback, and scheduled accordingly!
 
irish_buffalo said:
Of course they CAN. And of course Athens MADE the playoffs under the current situation.

I laid out a bunch of proof that both Northwood and Gibsonburg have consistently made the playoffs in recent years (Northwood over a decade) only to be bounced in the first round. Many times in bad fashion.

Up your OOC schedule and the problem goes away.
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Get yourself into an easy region, and the problem goes away.
 
tom_hsfootball_fan said:
A "bad schedule" should not primarily measured by what divisions the opponents are in (unless it is extreme). It is the *number of total wins* of the opponents. The undefeated schools that got excluded this year were in the mid-30s. Athens in 2014, as you can see from above, was 47.
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You are including playoff games. The wins at the end of the regular season was actually 44. And the point here is that Athens plays these smaller schools EVERY YEAR since they joined that conference. If Athens ever goes 10-0 and misses the playoffs, I will be laughing my off. They did miss the playoffs once with a 9-1 season.
 
Northwood needs to get out of the TAAC. It has always been a traditionally weak football conference, and as a DV team, the league is doing them no favors for strength of scheduling. If their only concern is winning conference championships though, they will win that trophy almost every year.
 
Toledo Blade with a pretty good article summarizing everything. Seems like both teams suffered from tough regions as much as weak SOS. Article said Northwood would’ve made playoffs in two D1 regions?

www.toledoblade.com

Briggs: Perfect, but no playoffs

We’ve seen the photograph a thousand times. A team wins a championship, then gathers for a triumphant picture, the smiling players holding up their index ...
www.toledoblade.com www.toledoblade.com

Overall, I think the Harbin system is pretty great all things considered... but two perfect teams missing the playoffs is strongest argument possible to change up or do away with “regions” entirely
 
OhioBobcatFan06 said:
Toledo Blade with a pretty good article summarizing everything. Seems like both teams suffered from tough regions as much as weak SOS. Article said Northwood would’ve made playoffs in two D1 regions?

www.toledoblade.com

Briggs: Perfect, but no playoffs

We’ve seen the photograph a thousand times. A team wins a championship, then gathers for a triumphant picture, the smiling players holding up their index ...
www.toledoblade.com www.toledoblade.com

Overall, I think the Harbin system is pretty great all things considered... but two perfect teams missing the playoffs is strongest argument possible to change up or do away with “regions” entirely
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D1 playoffs can be a joke because only 18-20 teams make a region. The top is usually great but that 6-10 range can be average at best.
 
OhioBobcatFan06 said:
Overall, I think the Harbin system is pretty great all things considered... but two perfect teams missing the playoffs is strongest argument possible to change up or do away with “regions” entirely
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Being "perfect" is success, not accomplishment. It means NOTHING. It is not an argument to change the system at all.
 
tom_hsfootball_fan said:
Being "perfect" is success, not accomplishment. It means NOTHING. It is not an argument to change the system at all.
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suc·cess
/səkˈses/
noun
noun: success; plural noun: successes
  1. the accomplishment of an aim or purpose.
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I'm sure it sounded great in your head. Needs either more harbins or more wins. Want to take another shot at what it was you were trying to get across?
 
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