District Results-Centerville girls

[yj_runfan]

Everyone seems so quick to demand that Dobson leave based on one mistake when he has a long history of only good stuff at Centerville. That seems too harsh to me. Coaches make mistakes. If a coach continues to make mistakes and runs the program into the ground, they may need to be dismissed. However, no one called it a mistake when they succeeded in winning 4 State championships.

That is not correct. Many here called it a mistake over the years.

 

[CoolDad]

I would like to point out that it is common for the best NCAA cross country coaches to rest their top runners at the lower level meets in order to get top performances at Nationals. Coach McDonnell at Arkansas used to do this all the time.

Key point being rest during lower level meets. Districts is not a lower level meet as it is necessary to advance to the state championships. Dobson and many here clearly have different opinions on what benefit resting the week of districts will have. I'm personally in the camp that one 5k district race off for a high schooler has very little to no benefit on their performance at States. But to satisfy both camps, having your top athletes tempo at districts would be the clear cut answer here to wanting to give your athletes one less week of all out racing while actually ensuring your team advances. Or not having your entire top 7 rest and just a select couple individuals.

 

[ralphus33]

The NCAA also races longer distances, particularly on the guys side, and has a completely different qualifying system with at-large berths.

 

[Newton's Third]

The NCAA also races longer distances, particularly on the guys side, and has a completely different qualifying system with at-large berths.

And with stronger, better trained, tougher minded, HS cream of the crop athletes, they are able to push to extreme physical and mental limits that very few HS athletes can reach. Over-racing can be quite a burden for athletes at that level that is not in play for most HS athletes.

 

[The_Rocco]

That is not correct. Many here called it a mistake over the years.

Agree. That entire post sounds so similar to the two point conversion comment in the news article. LOL

 

[psycho_dad]

Why did I go for the 2 point conversion? "Because the rules won't let you go for three."

 

[buckeyes4me]

If only you all knew everything - you would not want your own daughter under his supervision. I wish I could share.

 

[trevo45]

I think what Coach Dobson did was risky, but with the potential of a large payoff. As with any risk, it can backfire. This time it did and I am sure Coach Dobson will be rethinking his approach next time around.

This is incorrect, the potential payoff is maybe a few seconds faster per runner next week. The thought that running a 5k hard will have a negative effect on a race 7 days later is just unreasonable. That is plenty of time for kids to recover and there is no real evidence at all of it being beneficial to rest the week before. If I were the coach of a program that's a lock to qualify, I would have my runners race @ 90% effort. This has almost no downsides or risks and can help them learn about pacing and race strategies.

 

[jjberry]

This is incorrect, the potential payoff is maybe a few seconds faster per runner next week. The thought that running a 5k hard will have a negative effect on a race 7 days later is just unreasonable. That is plenty of time for kids to recover and there is no real evidence at all of it being beneficial to rest the week before. If I were the coach of a program that's a lock to qualify, I would have my runners race @ 90% effort. This has almost no downsides or risks and can help them learn about pacing and race strategies.

In fact , the idea of resting their varsity at districts so they run better at regions is not supported by the 2018 data. Last year the current top centerville varsity girls ran 17:42 , 18:12 and 19:22 at CONFERENCE meet and 17:42, 18:27, and 19:39 at REGIONAL meet (+32 seconds ). For comparison, without a weeks rest, the Top 3 for Beavercreek ran 17:14, 18:32 and 18:49 at DISTRICTS and 17:11, 18:23, and 19:01 at REGIONS (no net change in time, however improvement in top 2 runners are noted). These data are limited (sorry Mathking) but my conclusion is coach dobson runs JV for show, not to rest the varsity .

 

[psycho_dad]

I honestly can't get my head clear on this. I try to step back and give the benefit of the doubt, but his decision is so absurd that there really is only one side. Training and a coaching philosophy became more important than the sport or the kids.

If a kid came up to the coach and said they wanted to not run at the League or not run at the District because they felt it was better for them to optimize their chances at the Regional and State meets, we would not allow that as a coach. You don't get to pick and choose and then just expect to be put back in the lineup.

 

[EuclidandViren]

In fact , the idea of resting their varsity at districts so they run better at regions is not supported by the 2018 data. Last year the current top centerville varsity girls ran 17:42 , 18:12 and 19:22 at CONFERENCE meet and 17:42, 18:27, and 19:39 at REGIONAL meet (+32 seconds ). For comparison, without a weeks rest, the Top 3 for Beavercreek ran 17:14, 18:32 and 18:49 at DISTRICTS and 17:11, 18:23, and 19:01 at REGIONS (no net change in time, however improvement in top 2 runners are noted). These data are limited (sorry Mathking) but my conclusion is coach dobson runs JV for show, not to rest the varsity .

JJBerry good point. But your data may be skewed.

(1) Your population sample is small-3 runners? If you go back 5 years that this has occurred and do Beavercreek v. Centerville at the conference meet and regional. And if you used all 7 runners to show the complete set of data--that would give a more accurate picture of what Coach Dobson is thinking.
(2) Beavercreek traditionally runs the district race. But as stated earlier in this thread they don't always run all out. This year they pack ran.
(3) Different courses are used. Comparing Beavercreek at district and regional. Centerville at Conference and regional.

I would love to see a couple of points
(1) A total picture of data
(2) Has any college every done this with success? I have heard of NAU, Portland, Oregon and Stanford running packs at the regional races in XC to qualify. I have also heard their coaches telling them to NOT sprint the last 300 meters. But I have never seen them rest their entire top 7 at the regional race. Does anyone have data to support this claim in a 5k, 6k, or 10k at the collegiate level?

 

[CoachyCoach]

From another Coach's standpoint...... Over the years I have had the chance to coach some extraordinary teams. My take is simple. A coach needs to know his team. I have no doubt that Coach Dobson knows his kids and their capabilities well, most likely better then the athletes themselves. There are instances all over the country of teams resting some or all of their varsity during the early post season. This at times is just to get in a good training cycle and other times for the health of varsity runners who may or may not be nursing nagging issues. Everything at this time of year needs to be a net positive for your athletes (especially the girls), as they begin to develop the mindset that will take them through the most important part of the season. If you can afford to do so it's a valuable tool to have as a coach.

However, you've got to know your kid; , where they are as a runner, and be able to fully explore all potential scenarios of sitting some or all. I have no doubt like I said before that Coach Dobson is well aware of the capabilities of all of his runners. He fell short in the exploring all scenarios department. As I tell my athletes, Learn from your mistakes. As bad as something may seem at the time, there's a positive to take away from everything. Unfortunately mistakes this time of the year have much larger in magnitude. Hopefully all involved will rally and make a run to NXN.....I feel for the JV kids, as they are not at fault either and were put in a very tough place. Either way, I'm sure the program will continue it's success after some soul searching and come out the other side a better team because of it.

 

[The_Rocco]

As bad as something may seem at the time, there's a positive to take away from everything.

I'm curious: what positive came out of this? All I see right now is negative and shouldn't have happened in the first place.

 

[CoachyCoach]

I'm curious: what positive came out of this? All I see right now is negative and shouldn't have happened in the first place.

Honestly not much, however it's a done deal and hopefully the coach and anyone else involved in the decision making clearly has a couple of extra weeks to rethink their methods and should. That way it never happens again.

 

[SOTT]

I'm curious: what positive came out of this? All I see right now is negative and shouldn't have happened in the first place.

Just spit-balling, here, but how about:

Your worth as a person is not founded upon how fast you are, what place you are, or generally how talented you are as an individual or team. Essentially, you are no less worthy just because you/your team isn't competing at the regional cross country meet in the state of Ohio in the year 2019. We get so wrapped up in successes and failures as defined by our high school athletic performance so this can serve as a good reminder that those things are simply opportunities and experiences through which we learn. (I know, easy for me to say from outside the ropes and much harder for those directly involved, but it's still something I believe to be truth.)

 

[Rohbino]

(2) Has any college every done this with success? I have heard of NAU, Portland, Oregon and Stanford running packs at the regional races in XC to qualify. I have also heard their coaches telling them to NOT sprint the last 300 meters. But I have never seen them rest their entire top 7 at the regional race. Does anyone have data to support this claim in a 5k, 6k, or 10k at the collegiate level?

Earlier ralphus and Newton's third mentioned the differences between HS XC and NCAA XC. It is like comparing an apple to an orange. The two are quite disparate.

NCAA runners run far fewer races throughout the year compared to HS runners. Additionally, the guys, at the D1 level, are moving up to 8,000 meters throughout most of the year and 10K in the post-season. D2 also is 10K in the post-season while D3 and NAIA are 8K in the post-season. The women are running 6,000 meters. In all divisions and among all sexes there might be some 5K events smattered about but that would be more common at the D3 level. Anyway, the racing is much more intense. I'm always amazed at how fast the collegiate races are. In HS the runners are mostly kids. In college they're men & women.

Last season the Wisconsin men's team was very successful. The were the B1G champs, the Great Lakes regional champs, and they were 8th in the national meet. With the exception of maybe one runner, the same 7 that ran in the regional meet ran in the national meet. Also, most of the 7 ran all post-season meets (league, regional, national). There was a guy that ran in the B1G, was held out for regional, and ran at the national. Additionally, Morgan McDonald was the B1G champion and the national champion. I can't remember where he was at the regional meet but he was somewhere around 8th maybe. He did not run at the same intensity in the regional meet that he did in the B1G and national.

Northern Arizona, the eventual men's national champs, only ran with two different runners at the national meet than they did at the regional meet. Also, most of their same runners also ran in their league meet.

I find it interesting that in men's XC the distance is increased by 3,000 and 5,000 meters for most of the season. It is a huge adjustment for the guys. The women are only increasing by 1,000 meters and it's not as much of an adjustment. The biggest adjustment for the guys is the distance AND the insane pace they run at the increased distance. For the women it is mainly the increased pace. That said, the women's bodies don't change as much as the guys do when they are transitioning to college. For many of the women, their best racing is done at the HS level and there is little to no improvement when transitioning to college. For many, there is a regression. For these reasons it also seems that it is difficult to compare what collegiate women do and how they race and compare that to the men.

But, to anwer your question E&V, I have never seen a major collegiate program rest the entire top 7 at a collegiate regional meet. Perhaps a few were rested or held out, usually to rest a tweak or injury, but never all 7.

A coach needs to know his team. I have no doubt that Coach Dobson knows his kids and their capabilities well, most likely better then the athletes themselves. There are instances all over the country of teams resting some or all of their varsity during the early post season.

I agree with you and that a coach needs to know his team. One would think that Coach Dobson would have known this team well enough that this strategy would not have worked this year.

I disagree with you about there being "instances all over the country of teams resting some or all of their varsity during the early post season." You make it seem as if it is a common practice. I'm sure that there are some programs that do it but there are not many examples of it. Additionally, when it is done, it is usually resting the team at the league meet and not a meet that determines if the team moves on in the post-season. Even so, most coaches want to win the league so even that practice is not common unless the team is in a lesser league and there is a high degree of confidence that the league can be won without the top runners. As I mentioned above, when referring to collegiate runners, it is common to maybe hold out a runner or a few runners if there is some sort of an injury/rehab thing going on. Holding out all 7 isn't common.

 

[CoachyCoach]

Earlier ralphus and Newton's third mentioned the differences between HS XC and NCAA XC. It is like comparing an apple to an orange. The two are quite disparate.

NCAA runners run far fewer races throughout the year compared to HS runners. Additionally, the guys, at the D1 level, are moving up to 8,000 meters throughout most of the year and 10K in the post-season. D2 also is 10K in the post-season while D3 and NAIA are 8K in the post-season. The women are running 6,000 meters. In all divisions and among all sexes there might be some 5K events smattered about but that would be more common at the D3 level. Anyway, the racing is much more intense. I'm always amazed at how fast the collegiate races are. In HS the runners are mostly kids. In college they're men & women.

Last season the Wisconsin men's team was very successful. The were the B1G champs, the Great Lakes regional champs, and they were 8th in the national meet. With the exception of maybe one runner, the same 7 that ran in the regional meet ran in the national meet. Also, most of the 7 ran all post-season meets (league, regional, national). There was a guy that ran in the B1G, was held out for regional, and ran at the national. Additionally, Morgan McDonald was the B1G champion and the national champion. I can't remember where he was at the regional meet but he was somewhere around 8th maybe. He did not run at the same intensity in the regional meet that he did in the B1G and national.

Northern Arizona, the eventual men's national champs, only ran with two different runners at the national meet than they did at the regional meet. Also, most of their same runners also ran in their league meet.

I find it interesting that in men's XC the distance is increased by 3,000 and 5,000 meters for most of the season. It is a huge adjustment for the guys. The women are only increasing by 1,000 meters and it's not as much of an adjustment. The biggest adjustment for the guys is the distance AND the insane pace they run at the increased distance. For the women it is mainly the increased pace. That said, the women's bodies don't change as much as the guys do when they are transitioning to college. For many of the women, their best racing is done at the HS level and there is little to no improvement when transitioning to college. For many, there is a regression. For these reasons it also seems that it is difficult to compare what collegiate women do and how they race and compare that to the men.

But, to anwer your question E&V, I have never seen a major collegiate program rest the entire top 7 at a collegiate regional meet. Perhaps a few were rested or held out, usually to rest a tweak or injury, but never all 7.


I agree with you and that a coach needs to know his team. One would think that Coach Dobson would have known this team well enough that this strategy would not have worked this year.

I disagree with you about there being "instances all over the country of teams resting some or all of their varsity during the early post season." You make it seem as if it is a common practice. I'm sure that there are some programs that do it but there are not many examples of it. Additionally, when it is done, it is usually resting the team at the league meet and not a meet that determines if the team moves on in the post-season. Even so, most coaches want to win the league so even that practice is not common unless the team is in a lesser league and there is a high degree of confidence that the league can be won without the top runners. As I mentioned above, when referring to collegiate runners, it is common to maybe hold out a runner or a few runners if there is some sort of an injury/rehab thing going on. Holding out all 7 isn't common.

I can assure you that if you go through the top 50 teams in the country you will see a trend of at least a few kids from each team not racing at the lowest level qualifying meet. The difference is you don't generally hear about it because most of the coaches who do it know where they stand. For instance, in VA Loudoun Valley just scored 18 points at their district meet, and did not run their top 4 runners. Joan and Marc knew that they would still win......

I'm sure it happens more often than you think with the upper echelon teams. In Centerville's position I certainly would have been tempoing my top 7 as I am a stat geek and would have previously sorted the meet with my second 7 to see what it looked like.

 

[The_Rocco]

I was thinking more of how this positively impacted everyone that was involved. Sorry about that.

A while back I read the thread started by EuclidandViren when a group of 4 parents was trying to get him ousted. At the time I thought it was just a few parents just mad at him but I started thinking that they were only 4 vocal parents and there could of been many others. One of the things they complained about was the training. Does anyone know if this was one of the complaints? I'm guessing it probably was.

 

[Rohbino]

I can assure you that if you go through the top 50 teams in the country you will see a trend of at least a few kids from each team not racing at the lowest level qualifying meet. The difference is you don't generally hear about it because most of the coaches who do it know where they stand. For instance, in VA Loudoun Valley just scored 18 points at their district meet, and did not run their top 4 runners. Joan and Marc knew that they would still win......

The key is what I bolded. More specifically, a few kids. I also alluded to that in my examples of collegiate teams and some HS teams. It is most often done, though, to rest a kid from an injury or perhaps a minor tweak, etc.

I have no doubt that Marc Hunter and his wife know what they're doing. Loudoun Valley is an anomaly, though. Their 2nd 7 is better than most teams' first 7. Note that they did not hold out all 7.

 

[CoachyCoach]

The key is what I bolded. More specifically, a few kids. I also alluded to that in my examples of collegiate teams and some HS teams. It is most often done, though, to rest a kid from an injury or perhaps a minor tweak, etc.

I have no doubt that Marc Hunter and his wife know what they're doing. Loudoun Valley is an anomaly, though. Their 2nd 7 is better than most teams' first 7. Note that they did not hold out all 7.

Correct- Valley is the anomaly, like most of the teams that will most likely travel to NXN......I could say that in most years, as shown, Centerville's second seven is also better then most varsity squads, right? I'll also note that Valley easily could have held out all seven, but are smart enough to make sure they have some insurance.

And i'm certainly not defending the decisions made. I think they were terrible. My point was a coach knows their kids best, so what was Coach Dobson thinking....Did he do his research?? I'd love to hear the answer, but am guessing we will never get it.

 

[Runningfast]

The Loudoun Valley comparison is a bit of apples and oranges, as the scenario seemed much lower risk for LV. How does qualification work in Virginia? Did they need to win this meet or finish in the top X teams to advance to next level? I don't know the answer to that question.

1. Their Dulles District appears to only have seven teams. A lot fewer moving parts in a race that small than in a race of 25 or so like Cedarville had this week.
2. Loudoun Valley is by far the superior team relative to their competition. In a virtual meet, even taking out the top seven, they still score only 18 points against 78 for the runner-up team. By top 5 average, even running their second seven they were 45 seconds per man clear of second place. Centerville was right on the edge of not qualifying in a virtual meet.

 

[Running Man 101]

The Loudoun Valley comparison is a bit of apples and oranges, as the scenario seemed much lower risk for LV. How does qualification work in Virginia? Did they need to win this meet or finish in the top X teams to advance to next level? I don't know the answer to that question.

1. Their Dulles District appears to only have seven teams. A lot fewer moving parts in a race that small than in a race of 25 or so like Cedarville had this week.
2. Loudoun Valley is by far the superior team relative to their competition. In a virtual meet, even taking out the top seven, they still score only 18 points against 78 for the runner-up team. By top 5 average, even running their second seven they were 45 seconds per man clear of second place. Centerville was right on the edge of not qualifying in a virtual meet.

Districts in Virginia are generally the same as a league meet in OH. You do have to qualify out of the District (league meet in VA to move on). Regional meets are huge for XC and TF.

 

[Running Man 101]

This was a huge error in judgement. It wasn't spontaneous either, which makes it worse. Simple milesplit model predicted the outcome. I don't think for a minute this was the intended outcome, but it does make you wonder about the entire approach.

Many have mentioned the top 7 that don't get to run. What the the 7 that did and now their team is at home because of them?

What exactly is the point of doing this? Is placing 5th nationally more important than 2nd in the state and maybe winning?

 

[EuclidandViren]

I was thinking more of how this positively impacted everyone that was involved. Sorry about that.

A while back I read the thread started by EuclidandViren when a group of 4 parents was trying to get him ousted. At the time I thought it was just a few parents just mad at him but I started thinking that they were only 4 vocal parents and there could of been many others. One of the things they complained about was the training. Does anyone know if this was one of the complaints? I'm guessing it probably was.

I believe that the letter was one-sided. The defenses side. Centerville girl coaches. The coaches noted that the controversy was about the training.
At the public school board meeting, which was aired and televised...there were showers of support of the coaches from former athletes, parents, and fellow teachers. I believe they felt threatened so they issued a proactive letter detailing their side of the story to help stir up local and state support from other coaches. I was emailed this letter to help stir up support. It was a massive email to many coaches. This was similar to the newspaper AD this week in which the coach and AD were proactive in getting out information on their side of the story.

I never read or was privy to the questions of the parents that complained viewpoint.
They never issued a statement about their complaints. The complaints were not published on-air at the school board meeting.
Did the school board release their complaints? I would assume not.
Were there actual complaints or was it just questioning? From my viewpoint, school districts do something called fact-finding sessions. And they MUST do them when accusations or written complaints are filed with the office of human resources. Legally this must occur. Lawyers run school districts right now because of lawsuits from inside and outside of school districts.
I believe all government organizations do this. Similar to the fact-finding session being held about our current president.

As a teacher/coach for 20+ years, I will tell you that if anyone looks hard enough on any person's tenure as a coach/teacher they can dig up enough evidence of little deeds that can get anyone fired. Any viewpoint can be skewed to the side of wrongdoing. The public wants and craves this information. The news outlets know it sells. The facebook mom's and dad's love to respond.

What I do know is that people keep noting on this thread-- IF YOU ONLY KNEW ALL OF THE INFORMATION.

Which sounds like there is more to the story...or threats.

 

[CoachyCoach]

You are correct about the above runningfast......Top 3 moved on I believe. I'm impressed by the size of the lowest level qualifiers in ohio. I think it's great for competition. Things in VA are a bit watered down. That being said, I'm even more confounded about the decision made because of this. As a coach, I would have to pretty much KNOW that the kids running could be in the top three of that meet to even think about doing what they did.

 

[HoroBob]

I was thinking more of how this positively impacted everyone that was involved. Sorry about that.

A while back I read the thread started by EuclidandViren when a group of 4 parents was trying to get him ousted. At the time I thought it was just a few parents just mad at him but I started thinking that they were only 4 vocal parents and there could of been many others. One of the things they complained about was the training. Does anyone know if this was one of the complaints? I'm guessing it probably was.

There is so much more than training. I don’t know all complaints lodged against him. I do know it was about environment and how some were getting treated.

You see how some people do not want to respond and it is because athletic director, school administration, and school board look other way. There is only one board member who tries to do the right thing, only one.

You just wouldn’t understand what it is like to be on this team. Each year state was won, my daughter said environment got worse. My daughter was in top 14 and not saying top 7 or 2nd 7. It is exhausting as the athlete and as parent.

My daughter’s experience brought her to point of having anxiety attacks during her runs (even at home). She said she just couldn’t stop associating negative things about running. And she would cry saying her go to place was taken away. She said she would never run for anyone ever again. You just don’t understand.

And to the person who says the girls should just do soccer or something else..tell the golfer to go do boxing. Tell the bowler to do basketball. These girls do it because they love it. I had my daughter try every sport when she was little. Name it. I had her try it. They love to run. It takes a certain personality and dedication to do distance. To tell them to quit is HARD for them. I told my daughter if she wanted to, it was ok, but some of these girls just do not want to do that. She cried and agonized because she didn’t want to be a quitter.

You don’t know what it is like. 2016 when they lost to Troy at GWOC, part of their great post race talk was “someone needs to step the f up” and then he brings up a workout that they didn’t meet times at a couple weeks earlier. Doesn’t say nothing during that practice mind you. Last year, someone told my daughter he said that they didn’t win the past 3 years at state. They merely didn’t lose. That was said in leading weeks into stare meet. What does that even mean? My daughter saw him yell at a pace group to point where spit was coming out and saying to use this as motivation to run faster. There is difference between yelling to and yelling at. They are not freaking football players. There is so much more that happened and others went thru.

And a person on letsrun saying how girls probably didn’t say anything, WRONG. People just look the other way.

I cannot speak and say every kid had same experience, but I know my daughter’s experience and I know that there are others. You have some kids and parents that are on both sides. It’s exhausting. How can someone turn something so simple as running into this? It happens and some people look other way.

My daughter got to point where her mileage dropped to below 20 miles a week. It broke my heart. It wasn’t about a podium, but a love. That look was gone from he face when she was running. But I’ll say that her going away to colleges and getting out of Centerville has helped. Her mileage is actually around 30 and the other day she said she got a runner’s high. She is even talking about doing running club, but deathly afraid of just going to first practice. I Ben told her, don’t tell them where you are from or what you have done. Just go be a runner.

If there are a bunches of coaches on here, keep it real with your kids. Motivation comes from looking at the positives not demeaning. Believe in them whether they are running in 18s or 25s and you will see improvement.

Any anyone who ever thought these girls from any of these years were arrogant or cocky, you couldn’t be further from truth.

 

[ralphus33]

Horobob, thank you for sharing. I am probably the person who talked about doing soccer or another sport. I wasn't trying to say "just do another sport." What I was trying to say is that I would not want to compete for this coach. If the school sticks with him, then I would look at other options, whether that be participating in another sport I like, running road races on my own, or transferring to another school. Doing any of these can be very difficult because of the love of the sport or the loss in friends/teammates. I have no knowledge of anything regarding the coach/program except what has been discussed on this and other forums, but thanks to you and some others I am finding out more. The judgment displayed by the coach in this case alone led me to believe there are likely other issues and that appears to be the case. I'm so sorry your daughter had to go through all of that and it ruined her love of running.

 

[Rohbino]

I could say that in most years, as shown, Centerville's second seven is also better then most varsity squads, right?

Yes & no. Centerville's 2nd seven is often good enough to advance from district to regional but I can never remember a time that the 2nd seven would still be better than the top teams' 1st seven in the same district. In other words, they're often good enough to advance but not good enough to win. For many coaches that would not be good enough. Most coaches want to win, or at least show as well as possible, of every competition that they're in.

I'm impressed by the size of the lowest level qualifiers in ohio. I think it's great for competition. Things in VA are a bit watered down.

Are you in a state other than Ohio, CoachyCoach? You seem like you might be due to your comment of being impressed with the size of the lowest level qualifiers in Ohio. This is a bit off topic but, if you are, I'm curious how things are in your state. I went on to the LetsRun forums the other night (I don't think I'll be back - they're awful), and someone mentioned that in NY there is only one post-season meet prior to the state meet. I would think that if that were the case in Ohio that there would need to be some sort of "qualification standard" for the post-season, in which case not all teams would be able to run in the post-season. The other way it would work is if there were a lot more pre-state meet sites and only a very few, one or two teams from each site, that would qualify for the state meet. I don't like either option. I like the way it is done in Ohio and wouldn't want it to change.

The states that I am most familiar with other than Ohio are Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, and Missouri. Illinois is most like Ohio. There are differences in semantics but Illinois has regionals (equivalent to our districts) and sectionals (equivalent to our regionals) prior to the state meet.

Michigan actually has separate finals for the UP & LP. For the UP the post-season only consists of the final. That probably works because the UP is so sparsely populated. In the LP there are regionals and the final. Indiana has even one more layer of qualifying than Ohio does. They have sectionals (32 sites), regionals (16 sites), semi-states (4 sites), and the state final.

Any anyone who ever thought these girls from any of these years were arrogant or cocky, you couldn’t be further from truth.

HoroBob, that would probably be me. A few days ago this is what I posted:

"More than one coach and runner has told me that one of the great pleasures is beating Centerville. It's not because of how good they are but, rather, how they're perceived - cocky, arrogant, and aloof. While those descriptions might not be entirely accurate, for those coaches and runners their perception is their reality."

If you read that again, I mention that the descriptions may not be accurate. However, that is how they are often perceived. For most people, perceptions are their reality. I've known some Centerville runners in the past and I would not say that they were arrogant or cocky. I apologize if I offended you in any way.

 

[CC Track Fan]

She is even talking about doing running club, but deathly afraid of just going to first practice. I Ben told her, don’t tell them where you are from or what you have done. Just go be a runner.

She should join ASAP. She will love it and the only pressure will be what she puts on herself (if she chooses to). Plus good chance she will meet some lifelong friends.

Thanks for sharing your side of the story.

 

[Seppo Kaitainen]

Unpopular opinion: I don't think the practice of running your second 7 at the district meet is anything but a positive for a program and a team (if you are reasonably sure you'll advance).

Most of us think of cross country season as fall and leaves turning and 50 degree races, but it's not. For the majority of runners, it's a summer sport. When the good racing weather finally rolls around, most of the team is already done. Then 1/10th of your team gets to race for five or six more weeks. There might be 10-15 kids on your team that miss those weeks of competing, but would be varsity on almost every other team in the state. So how do you keep those kids training and keep them involved? What incentive do they have to push themselves if they're 5 spots away from varsity on a huge team? How do you get your freshmen and sophomores post-season experience when your team already has 7 runners who would be the best runner on most teams in the state?

I have no idea about the inner workings of Centerville and I've never met their coach, but (when you know you can qualify) I don't have any issue with letting the second varsity team race. I don't see it as an advantage for the athletes resting that week, but it's a huge advantage for the program as a whole to keep twice as many kids motivated and training.